How are you using the effects loop

[AlbertA]

But putting delay after reverb or visa versa *will* make a difference in the sound.
Normally, delay (i.e echo) should either come in front reverb or in parallel with it, unless some exotic effect is being sought.

I.e. java's comments were only about cab sim placement in the signal chain.

No it appplies to delay as well (in series).

If you have this:
Reverb->Delay
vs.
Delay->Reverb

Those two will give you the same result;.

I find that hard to believe, but I'll try it out again and see what I hear.
I haven't tried using delay and reverb like that in decades.

I thought that the whole physics argument justifying why cabs don't affect the sound of time-based effects placed in front of or after the cabs, had to do with the cabs being an LTI ("Linear Time Invariant") effect.

I can see how a cab sim would be considered "LTI". It's just a type of filter.
But a reverb or a delay is a device designed to change an audio signal's propagation over time, altering its "lineage", no?

But for now, I'll take your word for it.

The system itself is time invariant (forgetting the modulation parameters from now). Take for example a delay of 10ms. You start playing at 0 seconds and end at 10 seconds. Within that 10 second interval the delay was always 10ms, constant and never varied with time (time invariant).

Now throw in modulation, say +-2ms swing over the 10ms base, that means at some times you get 8ms of delay and at other times you get 12 within that 10 second guitar lick, so in this case you say the system varies with time, as the delay was not constant.

 

[joegold]

The system itself is time invariant (forgetting the modulation parameters from now). Take for example a delay of 10ms. You start playing at 0 seconds and end at 10 seconds. Within that 10 second interval the delay was always 10ms, constant and never varied with time (time invariant).

Now throw in modulation, say +-2ms swing over the 10ms base, that means at some times you get 8ms of delay and at other times you get 12 within that 10 second guitar lick, so in this case you say the system varies with time, as the delay was not constant.

Like I said...I'll take your word on it, for now, until I get some time to mess around myself.

Thanks.

 

[danielodland]

I believe what you guys say about delay/verb in front of versus after cab sim. That one I get. But surely it must make a difference what order you put verb and delay in? If you put verb first, it won't reverberate each repeat of the delay individually. That must be a fact. Are you saying that does not affect the outcome at all? If the delay is first, and you hit a quick note, each delay repeat will decrease in volume, thus giving the verb less input. That must affect the sound? If you have verb first, the delay will repeat the same verb tail over and over again, just decreasing the volume of it. Also, if the verb is really long, each repeats verb tail won't be allowed to ring out as it would with the other setup. Am I crazy here? =)) I am not supertechnical in any way, as some of you guys seem to be, but it seems logical to me that this must make a difference.

 

[joegold]

I believe what you guys say about delay/verb in front of versus after cab sim. That one I get. But surely it must make a difference what order you put verb and delay in? If you put verb first, it won't reverberate each repeat of the delay individually. That must be a fact. Are you saying that does not affect the outcome at all? If the delay is first, and you hit a quick note, each delay repeat will decrease in volume, thus giving the verb less input. That must affect the sound? If you have verb first, the delay will repeat the same verb tail over and over again, just decreasing the volume of it. Also, if the verb is really long, each repeats verb tail won't be allowed to ring out as it would with the other setup. Am I crazy here? =)) I am not supertechnical in any way, as some of you guys seem to be, but it seems logical to me that this must make a difference.

I'm with you.
But I'll give AlbertA the benefit of the doubt until I get a chance to experiment.

 

[javajunkie]

keep in mind with the cabs if you are going mono, it will collapse your stereo field. Also, if you are using stereo cabs the default is to pan the 25% on each side. This will also effect the stereo field. This will be true with any effect that sums the input or the output. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[AlbertA]

I believe what you guys say about delay/verb in front of versus after cab sim. That one I get. But surely it must make a difference what order you put verb and delay in? If you put verb first, it won't reverberate each repeat of the delay individually. That must be a fact. Are you saying that does not affect the outcome at all? If the delay is first, and you hit a quick note, each delay repeat will decrease in volume, thus giving the verb less input. That must affect the sound? If you have verb first, the delay will repeat the same verb tail over and over again, just decreasing the volume of it. Also, if the verb is really long, each repeats verb tail won't be allowed to ring out as it would with the other setup. Am I crazy here? =)) I am not supertechnical in any way, as some of you guys seem to be, but it seems logical to me that this must make a difference.

Nope no difference. You end up with the same signal.

Reverb doesn't change it's characteristics based on input level (i.e. it's linear at least in the axe-fx) unlike a distortion.
Same goes for delay (if no modulation and no drive is used).

"Also, if the verb is really long, each repeats verb tail won't be allowed to ring out as it would with the other setup."

Delay doesn't take a chunk and repeat it over and over. It delays the input signal to it by a constant amount (the repeats come from the feedback), you'll hear the reverb ring out delayed, which would be the same as if you had it the other way around!

 

[danielodland]

This is so weird...sounds so wrong, but probably isnt, since I assume you know this stuff better than me. Just doesn't sound logical. But why would it ..=)

I used to experiment a lot with FX order when I had a floorful of pedals and crap, and I always came to the conclusion that I got a messier, dirtier sound with verb before delay. Must have been all in my head=)

 

[javajunkie]

This is so weird...sounds so wrong, but probably isnt, since I assume you know this stuff better than me. Just doesn't sound logical. But why would it ..=)

I used to experiment a lot with FX order when I had a floorful of pedals and crap, and I always came to the conclusion that I got a messier, dirtier sound with verb before delay. Must have been all in my head=)

I was flipping them back n forth today, I could hear no difference. You can even do it in real time, the axe-fx doesn't even glitch.

 

[AlbertA]

This is so weird...sounds so wrong, but probably isnt, since I assume you know this stuff better than me. Just doesn't sound logical. But why would it ..=)

I used to experiment a lot with FX order when I had a floorful of pedals and crap, and I always came to the conclusion that I got a messier, dirtier sound with verb before delay. Must have been all in my head=)

Well pedals are different beasts as maybe the load is different when you connected them a certain way. There's a lot more variables there.

But inside the axe-fx, no difference, as it's all in the digital domain.

 

[danielodland]

Nice, always learning something from you guys. Java, I'm sure I can't hear the difference etiher now that I know about it

Come to think of it, I probably havent even tried in the AFX, since I thought it mattered.

Albert, I dont even know any more, but I really think it did matter with my pedals, but now I'm all confused

Thats what I have for listening to people telling me to "use your ears man"... =)

 

[deep_spaceus]

One thing that nobody has mentioned is using a Roland VG-99 (or similar VG) in the effects loop. I have experimented with this and it works good. I put the effects loop in the first block of the Axe-Fx, use a tube-pre model on the VG-99 to push up the gain a little bit, and then can use the VG-99 to model various guitars with alternate tunings through the Axe-Fx amps and effects. The VG-99 has great guitar sims and alternate tuning capabilities but it's amp modeling is typical Roland/Boss COSM digital sounding stuff that I really don't like. This approach gives me the best of both worlds.

 

[LAYGO]

I'm using the effects loop to include my Digitech RDS3.6 rack mount delay. I was going to start considering going direct cuz this venue we're playing is TINY. The thing is, I have amp/cab sims off globally. I haven't messed with anything direct.

But then I started thinking, if I'm going direct & including a cab on stage, how will I be able to use my RDS3.6? So I'm thinking about an A/B/Y switch. Out from the RDS3.6 to A/B/Y to Input2 and cab onstage.

Now if only the Ultra delays would change pitch when I lengthened/shortened the time, I could ditch the RDS3.6 & sell it to my singer.

Why don't the delays act like the RDS or Boss DD-x series delays? If they had a hold and changed pitch . . .