How accurate is Fractal's amp modeling?

[StingRay]

When the DC30 got added to the beta I was watching out for ideas to set them up and came across that pedal show's 1961 AC30:



and in comparison with a new AC15, DC30 and Victory:



Too bad they didn't get to the Morgan and Dr.Z, but we have them! Also /13 and Wreck liverpool and ruby rocket, off the top of my heaG

Interesting videos. As I was saying before, Matchless amps have their own character. I never thought they sounded just like an AC30, but maybe you can get them to. That said they are beautiful sounding amps and I totally understand when someone stays they think they sound better, but to me even though they are similar amps, they have their own flavors. Matchless are very silky sounding and more scooped, and as they guy said in the video, you can hear a larger spectrum of frequencies coming out of a Matchless. If I were doing solo atmospheric guitar work like Jeff Beck, then I would chose the Matchless, or a Top Hat Supreme 16, but for playing in a group, I certainly would go with the Vox with it more focused midrange honk and chime that I love like no other. Here, check this video out between a Moran and Korg AC30, very interesting. This is what made me lose interest in Morgans.

 

[johnnypig]

Similar situation with slo100/dual recto/5150, same overall circuit, completely different animals.

 

[FractalAudio]

Interesting videos. As I was saying before, Matchless amps have their own character. I never thought they sounded just like an AC30, but maybe you can get them to. That said they are beautiful sounding amps and I totally understand when someone stays they think they sound better, but to me even though they are similar amps, they have their own flavors. Matchless are very silky sounding and more scooped, and as they guy said in the video, you can hear a larger spectrum of frequencies coming out of a Matchless. If I were doing solo atmospheric guitar work like Jeff Beck, then I would chose the Matchless, or a Top Hat Supreme 16, but for playing in a group, I certainly would go with the Vox with it more focused midrange honk and chime that I love like no other. Here, check this video out between a Moran and Korg AC30, very interesting. This is what made me lose interest in Morgans.

I like Rick Beato's videos but this one leaves out critical information: what channel on the Vox was he using?

The normal channel on a Vox would be closest to the Morgan. The Brilliant channel is a "Top Boost" which means it has a tone stack and a significant midrange cut. The normal channel has no tone stack. You can't compare a a Morgan AC20 to the Brilliant channel of an AC30 and declare that one sounds better than the other. Totally different preamps and, therefore, different sound.

Personally I think the AC20 is a better amp. Better made, better quality components, much better transformers. If you want that chimey AC30 sound you put an EQ before it and suck out some mids.

 

[johnnypig]

They first used the normal channel, then the vibrato channel at the end. Also, I agree that Morgan is the better amp today especially because you don't have to hunt for one.

 

[York Audio]

Hehehe, that's funny! So am I correct in saying you like miking the cap, or are you miking off-center and it's still in the way.

I hope Cliff will take it on, I hear those early '90s Korg AC30s sounded better than the new hand wired ones, what does that tell you? I sold mine almost 25 years ago. It was beautiful, but too loud for playing in the house, hehe. Since I had it so long ago, I can't really compare it, but the way I remember it sounding, it sounded better than a current model. I also see used hand wired AC30s for sale regularly, I rarely see a early '90 for sale. What does that tell you?

As I said, I hope Cliff will take it on, but unfortunately I don't think he will because I don't think he thinks it's significant enough of a difference to warrant it. A hand picked JMI, maybe, but an early Korg I don't think so. I hope I'm wrong.

I put mics all over the speaker, but the diffusion bar adds harsh reflections in the upper-mids, so finding "sweet spots" is way more difficult. Both of my Matchless cabs have diffusion bars. While the end result is a great sounding Cab Pack for "that sound," they were also the hardest cabs I've ever shot. The Korg era AC30 is an incredible amp. I've put it side by side against the CC and Hand Wired versions and the Korg was the winner by a landslide. Bonus points because it doesn't have diffusion bars and breathes more openly.

 

[Mariano]

question to you guys perfectly matching real amps, do you go into the advanced parameters or only use the authentic tab ones?

 

[York Audio]

question to you guys perfectly matching real amps, do you go into the advanced parameters or only use the authentic tab ones?

I use the LB-2 and run the real amp through the Axe with a Tone Match block. Then I set the model’s impedance curve to the LB-2 UK so both amp and model are seeing the same curve. I dial in the amp and mirror the settings on the model and then view the TMA’s monitor page while I loop a chord progression. I can get it nearly indistinguishable with just the basic controls, but every once in a while I’ll switch the preamp or power amp tube type and that gets the tone even closer. Lastly, adjusting the Sag control helps to get the “feel” right once the TMA EQ curve is as flat as I can get it.

I can normally match an amp within 5 minutes using that technique, and then set the model’s impedance curve to match the IR I’m using. Presto! You now have an accurate amp match. I normally activate and bypass the TMA block after the process to see how close they are without any “help,” and Cygnus has made it to where I don’t need the TMA engaged to match the real amp.

 

[austinbuddy]

I use the LB-2 and run the real amp through the Axe with a Tone Match block. Then I set the model’s impedance curve to the LB-2 UK so both amp and model are seeing the same curve. I dial in the amp and mirror the settings on the model and then view the TMA’s monitor page while I loop a chord progression. I can get it nearly indistinguishable with just the basic controls, but every once in a while I’ll switch the preamp or power amp tube type and that gets the tone even closer. Lastly, adjusting the Sag control helps to get the “feel” right once the TMA EQ curve is as flat as I can get it.

I can normally match an amp within 5 minutes using that technique, and then set the model’s impedance curve to match the IR I’m using. Presto! You now have an accurate amp match. I normally activate and bypass the TMA block after the process to see how close they are without any “help,” and Cygnus has made it to where I don’t need the TMA engaged to match the real amp.

I just love this!

 

[StingRay]

I like Rick Beato's videos but this one leaves out critical information: what channel on the Vox was he using?

The normal channel on a Vox would be closest to the Morgan. The Brilliant channel is a "Top Boost" which means it has a tone stack and a significant midrange cut. The normal channel has no tone stack. You can't compare a a Morgan AC20 to the Brilliant channel of an AC30 and declare that one sounds better than the other. Totally different preamps and, therefore, different sound.

Personally I think the AC20 is a better amp. Better made, better quality components, much better transformers. If you want that chimey AC30 sound you put an EQ before it and suck out some mids.

No doubt the Moran is a higher quality amp, but honestly I didn't realize the Morgan is built just for normal channel on an AC30TB and no TB channel, but personally that's defeating the purpose as far as I'm concerned. I only use the TB channel. I never liked the normal channel, however if the Morgan was based on a JMI non-TB Treble model AC30 that could be very interesting for me! I assumed the Morgan was like the Bad Cat and Top Hat amps based on the TB circuit, and you know what they say about "assumption!"

Ironically I always liked adding a significant amount of mids to the TB channel and notching a tad from the high end to get the perfect chime. That's where all the editing parameters on the AXE amp block come in extremely handy, or the AXE paraEQ if I'm going to a real amp.

 

[Smittefar]

When the DC30 got added to the beta I was watching out for ideas to set them up and came across that pedal show's 1961 AC30:



and in comparison with a new AC15, DC30 and Victory:



Too bad they didn't get to the Morgan and Dr.Z, but we have them! Also /13 and Wreck liverpool and ruby rocket, off the top of my head.

I must say, I struggle to get the clean tones, these guys are getting. It feels like, most of the models get quite driven even on very low settings of input drive/volume/Master volume. I find it difficult to get super chimey and retain the cleanliness. (but then again, this is Cygnus beta 10, in which I believe both tone control and hi-cut are not functioning properly)

 

[StingRay]

question to you guys perfectly matching real amps, do you go into the advanced parameters or only use the authentic tab ones?

Definitely advanced parameters. This is one of the things I looove about the AXE FX, lots of things to tweak. I will say this though, I try to stay with the authentic tone controls, so for example, on an AC30, I generally don't touch the Mid knob on the advanced controls since an AC30 has no mid knob. If I feel it needs more mids, which I generally always do, I adjust it elsewhere.

 

[StingRay]

I must say, I struggle to get the clean tones, these guys are getting. It feels like, most of the models get quite driven even on very low settings of input drive/volume/Master volume. I find it difficult to get super chimey and retain the cleanliness. (but then again, this is Cygnus beta 10, in which I believe both tone control and hi-cut are not functioning properly)

Mmm, well since I won't install Cygnus until it's official, I can't say, but maybe try reducing the master vol trim and playing with preamp bias and presence frequency.

 

[Smittefar]

But none of the guys in any of the videos do that. The Morgan in the Beato video is (too) gainy right out of the gate, but the others can be set clean right out of the gate - should be possible in our models as well.

EDIT: I always had this feeling about these amps regardless of FW version.

 

[StingRay]

I must say, I struggle to get the clean tones, these guys are getting. It feels like, most of the models get quite driven even on very low settings of input drive/volume/Master volume. I find it difficult to get super chimey and retain the cleanliness. (but then again, this is Cygnus beta 10, in which I believe both tone control and hi-cut are not functioning properly)

Oh, also I don't know if this is true or not, maybe I'm wrong, and/or maybe it doesn't matter but I heard that only the high gain channel was modeled for the DC30. I heard this about the Bad Cat model too which if true is a shame, because both have very beautiful unique clean sounds that may, or may not be as nice sounding in the higher gain channels which of course would affect the chime factor. Hopefully someone who knows more about this will chime in on this, pardon the pun!

 

[Smittefar]

Pun forgiven

We do have the 12AX7 channel of the DC30 now, which helps a lot - The EF86 channel is great for driven tones, but for cleans the 12Ax7 channel is the place to be When I reduce input trim to 0.5 (simulating the low input) I get in the ballpark.

Here's the settings by the way (because, why not)

 

[StingRay]

But none of the guys in any of the videos do that. The Morgan in the Beato video is (too) gainy right out of the gate, but the others can be set clean right out of the gate - should be possible in our models as well.

EDIT: I always had this feeling about these amps regardless of FW version.

I agree with what you're saying, but as I was corrected above, Morgan amps, or at least this model is not based on the chimy TB circuit, but the normal channel of and AC30, so it won't have the big Chime.

 

[StingRay]

Pun forgiven

We do have the 12AX7 channel of the DC30 now, which helps a lot - The EF86 channel is great for driven tones, but for cleans the 12Ax7 channel is the place to be When I reduce input trim to 0.5 (simulating the low input) I get in the ballpark.

Here's the settings by the way (because, why not)
View attachment 80414

Ah, okay, that's good to know. I haven't played around with the DC30 amp model in ages but I'll have to check that out. Actually, now that I think of it I haven't played with a DC30 model since my AXE FXII hehe. Still happily exploring my AXE FXIII. Thanks for the info.

 

[StingRay]

Pun forgiven

We do have the 12AX7 channel of the DC30 now, which helps a lot - The EF86 channel is great for driven tones, but for cleans the 12Ax7 channel is the place to be When I reduce input trim to 0.5 (simulating the low input) I get in the ballpark.

Here's the settings by the way (because, why not)
View attachment 80414

Pun forgiven

We do have the 12AX7 channel of the DC30 now, which helps a lot - The EF86 channel is great for driven tones, but for cleans the 12Ax7 channel is the place to be When I reduce input trim to 0.5 (simulating the low input) I get in the ballpark.

Here's the settings by the way (because, why not)
View attachment 80414

Glad you're making progress, but just to be clear, hope you understand I said "master volume trim" not "input trim" but hay whatever works for you.

 

[Smittefar]

Sure, I was aware that you did not mean input trim - But I am one of those guys that will choose a different amp model, if I cannot get the sound I want without touching the advanced parameters (except for speaker impedance curve and speaker dynamics (including saturation))

 

[York Audio]

I just love this!

You gotta try it. That’s what Cliff recommended I do to match amps and it’s a total game changer. You’ll be shocked at how little the Tone Match does once you dial in the amp/presence/master volume to match your real amp.