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Hi fi amp?

dr bonkers

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
And therefore providing the most neutral platform for the Axe fx to thrive upon surely?
I would think so. If a reference amp is made to amplify the sound of a mix from multitrack through channel strips to monitors in a neutral way, so that, in a tuned room, your mix translates well to multiple listening environments, then isn't that the same level of amplification that you want in a monitor amp for your modeler?
 

chris

Legend!
I don't understand why nobody appears to have grasped this yet, as we have??
how much is something like this amp?

how much better is it? is it 1% better? i'd pass if it's that. is it 80% better?

i think people aren't "grasping" it simply because the other solutions being used sound like a real amp already to them. nothing further to look for.

are big concerts using these types of amps? if not, i don't see why i need to for a small gig. it sounds like i expect and need nothing more. i'm using $400 CP8 speakers and everyone says it sounds amazing now.

i could show up to a gig with $10,000 worth of gear amps and speakers in my own setup. then i send an XLR cable to the house PA worth $1500. that's what the audience hears.
 

neale dunham

Inspired
Probably no more than your Standard run-o-the-mill Friedman Be100 or Matchless equivalent or even Two Rock or Vintage Ac30.

The point in question still remains, that is a flatter response amp better for an Axe fx no matter if its only 1%?
 

iaresee

Moderator
Moderator
Probably no more than your Standard run-o-the-mill Friedman Be100 or Matchless equivalent or even Two Rock or Vintage Ac30.
A Bryston 4B will set you back $2000. And you haven't even bought speakers yet. A pair of McIntosh MC611's are $15,000.

The point in question still remains, that is a flatter response amp better for an Axe fx no matter if its only 1%?
Only you can decide that for yourself.
 
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chris

Legend!
Probably no more than your Standard run-o-the-mill Friedman Be100 or Matchless equivalent or even Two Rock or Vintage Ac30.

The point in question still remains, that is a flatter response amp better for an Axe fx no matter if its only 1%?
for me, it is no matter. flatter than what? almost flat? flat enough? the quest for "best" is never ending.
 
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neale dunham

Inspired
Fair point Chris, and it seems you have settled on a point in technology that suits you. Cant argue with that.

Did the guy that invented the original Axe fx stop there? Nope he pushed on.....why? Because he thought he could do better.
 

chris

Legend!
Did the guy that invented the original Axe fx stop there? Nope he pushed on.....why? Because he thought he could do better.
sure. because he's designing technology. in your example, you're discovering what's already out there. he's creating, so as the creator, he probably knows what more he can do. it's a different set of situations.

i'm not saying to not try new or better things. i'm just sharing a perspective that better isn't always a necessity.

it's not like i'm ok with using a speaker and other technology from the 1950s or something. i just think certain levels of gear provide a more-than-adequate and even amazing sound, and i don't need to jump to audiophile levels of gear for what i do. i use the shure SE215s for my IEMs, at $100 a set. i've tried $500 and higher sets and i don't get that much better quality out of them. i do hear what they're doing and why they're more expensive, but they don't add to my experience at all vs the inexpensive ones. so i use the SE215s.

again, do what you will and then let us know. maybe we are all missing something that could be attainable. but i don't think i am. i've tried many things too.

others share this experience, and i'm just mentioning all this to answer your question of why nobody else grasps this yet. the cost and gear change needed to do it probably doesn't give a compelling difference to go through that effort compared to the "normal" gear we're all using already. that's probably the main reason.

go for it though!
 

BBN

Fractal Fanatic
I don't understand why nobody appears to have grasped this yet, as we have??
I fully understand you points, and they are valid.
If I found a Bryston amp for reasonable money, I'd love to try one out.
Is it 1% (or more) better? Very likely.

I use a Crown K2 amp in my basement and it sounds outstanding. Is 1% better going to make a difference to me, likely not.
But you are correct, 1% better is still better by definition.

Why folks don't gravitate to the more expensive (but better) power amps, is that it's a point of diminishing returns.
When we're blessed with something like the Axe FX, sometimes we can 'cure' other component deficiencies right in the box.
If my power amp isn't totally flat, maybe I can cure that with a little Eq.

Don't get me wrong, take an old Behringer power amp and throw it up against a Crown reference amp, and you will hear a significant difference.
Some of that graininess with the old Behringer amps will not be solved by Axe FX tweaks, and it can't/won't sound like a Crown reference amp.
Some people can live with that, some people can't....and of course, budget has a lot to do with it.

Some people are super happy with a QSC CP8, and some people are not happy unless they're playing through an RCF NX12ma.....the power amp conversation is the same.

My old studio engineering instructor (Dave Moulton) designed a nice Bang&Olufsen speaker that was the perfect studio monitor. I've never heard music sound as good as it did out of those speakers. But they're $15k each. Although I know how much better they are, I'm not going to buy them.
 

dr bonkers

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
how much is something like this amp?

how much better is it? is it 1% better? i'd pass if it's that. is it 80% better?

i think people aren't "grasping" it simply because the other solutions being used sound like a real amp already to them. nothing further to look for.

are big concerts using these types of amps? if not, i don't see why i need to for a small gig. it sounds like i expect and need nothing more. i'm using $400 CP8 speakers and everyone says it sounds amazing now.

i could show up to a gig with $10,000 worth of gear amps and speakers in my own setup. then i send an XLR cable to the house PA worth $1500. that's what the audience hears.
You are assuming that every venue has a PA. Sometimes your monitoring is your sound that the audience hears.

Even if it isn't the sound your audience hears, let's assume you are spending money on a power amp for your listening pleasure:

Fryette LX II = $1,400 USD
Matrix GT-1000FX = $1,000 USD

Versus
Hafler P7000 = $400 USD (used)
Crown CDi1000 = $700 USD
Crest CLH-2500= $975
etc.

I could never understand why people gush over the Matrix and Fryette power amps when they tend to be more expensive and not as flat as many mid-priced reference power amps.
 

chris

Legend!
You are assuming that every venue has a PA. Sometimes your monitoring is your sound that the audience hears.
yes my example assumed there was a house PA, as referenced. i'd say majority of venues have some sort of PA and want you to use that. of course there can be an exception to that, as with anything. i can't give an example that mentions all variables possible.
 

dr bonkers

Fractal Fanatic
Vendor
yes my example assumed there was a house PA, as referenced. i'd say majority of venues have some sort of PA and want you to use that. of course there can be an exception to that, as with anything. i can't give an example that mentions all variables possible.
Even disregarding your FOH argument, your pricing levels between the two classes of amps were dismissively and wildly skewed as I showed above.

Nobody outside the extreme high level pro touring circuit would bring a $15K USD new McIntosh amp to a gig.

Fortunately on the used market, you can find several two channel McIntosh amps at the same price level as the frfr class amps and they run forever with minimal maintenance. If you don't want used, there are several options that I listed above at the same price level or below.
 

chris

Legend!
your pricing levels between the two classes of amps were dismissively and wildly skewed as I showed above.
i wasn't referencing any specific "class of amps." i only said i could show up with $10k of gear - it could be anything worth that amount - and yet the audience would mostly hear the $1.5K pa system and not my expensive setup.

my point was that generally speaking, we could bring more expensive/higher quality gear to a show, and the audience might never hear it. so we have to ask ourselves is it worth bringing all that?

for some the answer is yes. i could get away with a $200 guitar at the gigs i play with no pedals at all. many here do exactly that. instead i take a Ernie Ball Majesty guitar and Fractal gear because it gives me what i need to perform at my best, or to be comfortable.

regardless of the pricing of these "hi-fi" amps, if it gives you what you need, then by all means use it.

but my question to all of this was is it actually that much better than non-hi-fi amps that are readily available and that we see at shows now? and i was honestly asking how much these amps cost in that earlier quote. i don't know, because i'm not personally interested in specific amps that may or may not be better than what i've used before.

Nobody outside the extreme high level pro touring circuit would bring a $15K USD new McIntosh amp to a gig.
unfortunately this statement may not be true. the gear i see at some gigs can be considered ridiculous. i've seen literally $20k worth of PA system alone for a 1st birthday party for a acoustic guitar duo in a room for 100 people. they bought it, and they're using it, and they want to hear that level of gear. it's up to them.

but someone would definitely bring a $15k amp to a gig. it happens more often than one may think.

fender had a limited edition EVH relic guitar for $25k. my store sold 2 of them at the time. i saw both guitars out on gigs many times at local dive bars paying the band $100 total.

it happens!
 
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