Help: 4CM real amp + "specular digital rig" to FOH...is this possible with the Axe-Fx ?

[ElectricGypsy]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and I'm very happy to have joined the group.

I'm going to buy a Fractal product, I'm not already sure wich one and here's why. In some live situation I'd like to use the Axe-Fx with my real amp and cab, but I don't want to mic the cab on stage. To do this I'll connect the Axe-Fx to my amp with the 4 cable method, so I'll be able to run effects in front and in send-return, and also I'll send a complete digital signal path to the PA. Let me explain what I mean; there will be 2 signal path: the first one would include my real amp and cab with all the effects, both those who are in front and in send-return. The second one would have the same effects, but with an amp simulation instead of my real amp and of course a cab simulation instead of my real cab.

I've read that it's possible to do this kind of thing but with all digital elements except for the cab, so amp simulation with effects all through a real cab on stage and the same signal path with a cab simulation going to the PA; my case is almost like this but I want to use my tube amp on stage. I'm not sure that what I want to do can be done, so I've decided to ask to the experts before doing anything.

And finally my last doubt is: which is the best piece of gear to to this kind of thing ? The AX8, the Axe-Fx II XL+, or the Axe-Fx III ? I mean for example the AX8 would have enough power ?

Let me know, I'm looking forward to read your tips. Thanks a lot.

 

[unix-guy]

There are not enough outputs to do that except for the Axe Fx III.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

There are not enough outputs to do that except for the Axe Fx III.

But the Axe-Fx II XL + has 2 balanced and 4 unbalanced outputs, hasn't it ? Can you explain that better ? Thanks.

 

[unix-guy]

But the Axe-Fx II XL + has 2 balanced and 4 unbalanced outputs, hasn't it ? Can you explain that better ? Thanks.

You have 2 sets of outputs (Output 1 has XLR and 1/4", and Output 2 has 1/4"). The 4CM requires both as far as I am aware.

This means you have no separate output for your "digital rig" to go to FOH.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

You have 2 sets of outputs (Output 1 has XLR and 1/4", and Output 2 has 1/4"). The 4CM requires both as far as I am aware.

This means you have no separate output for your "digital rig" to go to FOH.

If I've understood it correctly I'll have 2 XLR, 1 1/4 jack (Out1) and 1 1/4 jack (Out2) free; so I think that I've enough outputs to go to the FOH...am I wrong ?

 

[unix-guy]

View attachment 51666

If I've understood it correctly I'll have 2 XLR, 1 1/4 jack (Out1) and 1 1/4 jack (Out2) free; so I think that I've enough outputs to go to the FOH...am I wrong ?

I can't explain it any differently... 4CM uses both Output 1&2.

Yes, there will be "unused" jacks, in that they won't have a cable connected but they WILL have a signal already.

Actually, I think with creative routing you MIGHT be able to keep all the 4CM signal panned only to one side and your digital signal chain to the other side... But that might prove restrictive.

However, the Axe Fx II is no longer available new, so you'd be limited to used.

I'd really recommend the III...

 

[vairish]

I had a setup like this with my Axe FX II, and currently have the same setup with my Axe FX III. It's easy enough to setup and looks something like this:



*(On the Axe FX II, Out 2 would be FX Send and In 2 would be FX Return)

So in this scenario, I have the 4CM setup using Out 2 and In 2. When my amps signal comes back to my Axe FX through In 2, I split it along two separate paths. The first path is a cab block which is panned hard left. The second path is a VolPan block which is panned hard right. Then the signal path is then joined back together at Output 1.

When setup like this, the left output of Output 1 has a cab block applied, whereas the right side of Output 1 does not. This will allow you to connect to a PA system and a guitar cab simultaneously, with the cab simulation only going to the PA.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

I had a setup like this with my Axe FX II, and currently have the same setup with my Axe FX III. It's easy enough to setup and looks something like this:

View attachment 51683

*(On the Axe FX II, Out 2 would be FX Send and In 2 would be FX Return)

So in this scenario, I have the 4CM setup using Out 2 and In 2. When my amps signal comes back to my Axe FX through In 2, I split it along two separate paths. The first path is a cab block which is panned hard left. The second path is a VolPan block which is panned hard right. Then the signal path is then joined back together at Output 1.

When setup like this, the left output of Output 1 has a cab block applied, whereas the right side of Output 1 does not. This will allow you to connect to a PA system and a guitar cab simultaneously, with the cab simulation only going to the PA.

Thank you for sharing your experience. This is just what I was looking for. Now I've a question: If I'm not mistaken with a scenario like the one that you've just described the left Output 1 should have anyway also an amp sim, right ? Because the real amp sound only goes to the cab on stage. I mean the amp sound doesn't go throght the Axe-Fx to the cab sim and then to the left Output 1. So if I want to recreate the same sound that I've on stage I've to put an amp sim in the signal path the goes to the PA...

 

[WhiteSpace]

Thank you for sharing your experience. This is just what I was looking for. Now I've a question: If I'm not mistaken with a scenario like the one that you've just described the left Output 1 should have anyway also an amp sim, right ? Because the real amp sound only goes to the cab on stage. I mean the amp sound doesn't go throght the Axe-Fx to the cab sim and then to the left Output 1. So if I want to recreate the same sound that I've on stage I've to put an amp sim in the signal path the goes to the PA...

The way i understand that scenario there is an external amp in the effects loop whose signal is coming in via IN2. So the amp signal with cab sim goes out of output 1 left to stage and the amp signal with no cab sim goes out of output 1 right to the PA.

 

[WhiteSpace]

The way i understand that scenario there is an external amp in the effects loop whose signal is coming in via IN2. So the amp signal with cab sim goes out of output 1 left to stage and the amp signal with no cab sim goes out of output 1 right to the PA.

Sorry I got it backwards or maybe I have it wrong alotogether.

 

[WhiteSpace]

The way i understand that scenario there is an external amp in the effects loop whose signal is coming in via IN2. So the amp signal with cab sim goes out of output 1 left to stage and the amp signal with no cab sim goes out of output 1 right to the PA.

Sorry I got it backwards or maybe I have it wrong altogether.

 

[unix-guy]

The way i understand that scenario there is an external amp in the effects loop whose signal is coming in via IN2. So the amp signal with cab sim goes out of output 1 left to stage and the amp signal with no cab sim goes out of output 1 right to the PA.

In the example above, the external amp is going to a real cab and a cab block.

I think the OP wants to have his external amp in 4CM and a modeled Amp + Cab to the PA.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

The way i understand that scenario there is an external amp in the effects loop whose signal is coming in via IN2. So the amp signal with cab sim goes out of output 1 left to stage and the amp signal with no cab sim goes out of output 1 right to the PA.

With the 4cm The Axe-Fx is in front of the amp and at the same time in the amp fx loop. So leaving aside for now the fact that it's in front of the amp, we can say that the Axe-Fx is placed between the pre amp and the power amp, as all the classic pedalboards are.
If I split the signal at the Imput 2 the sound that it's coming from there is the pre amp sound, because it's coming from the amp send; then the Output 1 left side goes to a sim cab and the right side goes to the real cab. But in this way the left Output 1 only carrys the preamp sound to the cab sim, so I'll miss the amp power section.
My goal is to have the exactly same sound on stage and to the FOH, so I've to use an amp sim to really recreate my real amp sound...

 

[unix-guy]

With the 4cm The Axe-Fx is in front of the amp and at the same time in the amp fx loop. So leaving aside for now the fact that it's in front of the amp, we can say that the Axe-Fx is placed between the pre amp and the power amp, as all the classic pedalboards are.
If I split the signal at the Imput 2 the sound that it's coming from there is the pre amp sound, because it's coming from the amp send; then the Output 1 left side goes to a sim cab and the right side goes to the real cab. But in this way the left Output 1 only carrys the preamp sound to the cab sim, so I'll miss the amp power section.
My goal is to have the exactly same sound on stage and to the FOH, so I've to use an amp sim to really recreate my real amp sound...

Good point... Yes, you would miss the power amp.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

With the 4cm The Axe-Fx is in front of the amp and at the same time in the amp fx loop. So leaving aside for now the fact that it's in front of the amp, we can say that the Axe-Fx is placed between the pre amp and the power amp, as all the classic pedalboards are.
If I split the signal at the Imput 2 the sound that it's coming from there is the pre amp sound, because it's coming from the amp send; then the Output 1 left side goes to a sim cab and the right side goes to the real cab. But in this way the left Output 1 only carrys the preamp sound to the cab sim, so I'll miss the amp power section.
My goal is to have the exactly same sound on stage and to the FOH, so I've to use an amp sim to really recreate my real amp sound...

Wait it's not gonna work neither in this way Because, as I've just said , the sound coming from the Imput 2 is coming from the pre amp section so if I put an amp sim before the cab sim I'm essentially putting 2 pre amp in cascade: one is the real one and the other is the sim one...

 

[unix-guy]

Wait it's not gonna work neither in this way Because, as I've just said , the sound coming from the Imput 2 is coming from the pre amp section so if I put an amp sim before the cab sim I'm essentially putting 2 pre amp in cascade: one is the real one and the other is the sim one...

You would need to split the signal earlier in the chain... I think you should be able to do that using 2 Vol blocks after the input.

Again, using an Axe Fx III, this would be trivial... And why I said earlier it would require "creative routing" on the II

 

[Bakerman]

Do you plan to send a stereo signal to FOH?

It's possible to do this with the Axe-FX II. Connect Out 2 L/R to your amp's guitar input & FX return. Route like this and balance rows 2 & 3 (or whatever you use) left/right in the FX Loop block. Connect Out 1 L/R to FOH. Turn up feedback send "send" level and feedback return mix. Set Output 2 mode to "stereo" and input 2 mode to "left only" in I/O: Audio menu.

With a mono FOH signal you could optionally skip the feedback send/return and use Out 1 L/R for the different signals.

In either scenario (mono or stereo FOH) any full stereo post-amp effects could potentially be shared if you're not using the block for a stereo FOH effect. For example you could send both signals balanced L/R through blocks like flanger/phaser then isolate L/R (use input select of vol/pan blocks) to continue through separate stereo & mono delays.

 

[vairish]

In the example above, the external amp is going to a real cab and a cab block.

I think the OP wants to have his external amp in 4CM and a modeled Amp + Cab to the PA.

Ahh I completely missed that in his original post. In that case I would definitely agree with you and recommend getting an Axe FX III.

I have a similar setup running at home where I have my Friedman BE-50 going through my Axe FX III and into a 4x12 cab, while also have a full digital signal path with amp modelling going into my monitor speakers. It sounds huge. Besides the additional routing on the Axe FX III which makes this process easier, the additional CPU power is great for allowing me to assign both signal paths their own independent effects chains.

 

[Muad'zin]

I fail to see the benefits of running this needlessly complicated setup. Why not use your own amp's preamp both for the onstage cab and in combination with a cab sim to the FOH? Then you'd truly have the same sound on stage and via the FOH. After all you can make an IR of your own cab. Why go through all the extra hardship of using a separate amp sim as well? It's just extra CPU power that you can easily omit.

 

[ElectricGypsy]

I fail to see the benefits of running this needlessly complicated setup. Why not use your own amp's preamp both for the onstage cab and in combination with a cab sim to the FOH? Then you'd truly have the same sound on stage and via the FOH. After all you can make an IR of your own cab. Why go through all the extra hardship of using a separate amp sim as well? It's just extra CPU power that you can easily omit.

It won't be the same sound, because on stage I'd have the real amp sound (pre amp + power amp) but to the FOH I'd have only the pre amp sond. As I said before the power amp sound is missing...
My main idea is to have two separate path one real and one digital so I can have the best of both worlds: the real amp on stage and the best digital sim to the FOH so I don't have to mic the cab.
In theory the two signal paths would be like this:

1) Guitar -> In front effects (Ex. Overdrive, wha wha, boost etc.) -> Real amp -> Send - return effects (Delay, Reverb etc.) -> Real cab

2) Guitar -> In front effects (Ex. Overdrive, wha wha, boost etc.) -> Amp sim -> Send - return effects (Delay, reverb etc.) -> Cab sim -> FOH