Harmonizer shortcomings and wishes..

rednebb

rednebb

Inspired
I'm extremely happy with my Axe-Fx, and it can almost replace all my previous pedals. Almost.. So here are my wishes for the next firmware upgrade, specifically for the Axe-Fx's intelligent harmonizer: Make the key and harmony scale degree for voice 1 and 2 controllable parameters too, so you can change the key and/or change the harmony from let's say 3rd to 4th in real time with an exp pedal. At present you can only control "detune" for voice 1 and 2, and I don't see the big point why you can control the detune and not the key or scale degree. I'm a bit surprised that the otherwise super-advanced Axe-Fx can't do this, even my old boss GT-6 could do this..
And when we're talking about advanced harmonizing stuff, maybe they could also throw in something similar to the "musIQ" feature from the ingenious Digitech Harmony Man. It can "read" what key you're playing in, you just hold the footswitch for a second and play the tonic chord to set the key manually "on the fly". It can also provide "triad-centered shifting" which automatically creates harmonies based around root, 3rd, and 5th chordal structures, automatically changing intervals from for instance 3rd to 4th or 5th to 6th, based on the most common chordal structure in the actual key (hope I explained that right..).
So for now, I will still be needing my Digitech Harmony Man for certain harmonizing jobs, but I wish the Axe-Fx could do this too, so I can sell my Harmony Man..
 
Hey Kevil
You obviously know a hell of a lot more than I do about this. Could you place a second pitch block in parallel and then engage/disengage one or the other to change the harmony? Don't know about the rest of it.
 
Don't hold your breath rednebb.
I've been asking for such a feature ever since I got the Axe-fx.
No response.
Not even an answer why it couldn't be done.
All I asked for was to be able to assign a Control Change # to all parameters that currently can't have a controller assigned.

If you could assign a Cc to Key, Voice1 and 2 and key, these would easily be changeable with a midi pedal.
You could use one preset on the Axe-fx with a harmonizer and make different combinations of harmonizers by programming cc's on the midi pedal.
Or, as you suggested, change the voice from f.e. thirds to quarters...

But so far no luck.
You could do it by using sysex but cc's would make things so much more easier.
And as you said, other effect units have this feature.
Hell, even 20 years ago, my Digitech harmonizer had this feature, so I don't see xhy the Axe-fx couldn't have this feature.
 
I'd vote for this. In particular, I think the automatic key sensing feature would be really great, particularly for unstructured jamming when you need to adjust to conditions on the fly.
 
Yup, that would be AWESOME !!!!
To be able to have ONE preset and be able to change the key, and harmony part would be KILLER !! instead of having to make 13 of the same preset !!!!
 
I agree on the suggestions.

My workaround for changing the interval when using one voice at a time:
- set voice1 to a third, for example
- set voice 2 to a fifth
- pan one hard left, the other hard right
- assign a modifier to the balance on the mix page; it controls, which voice gets through

- my pitch block is followed by a mono cab block, so there's no panning, everything is in the center. the pitch block balance only switches between the voices = between the two intervals.
 
I started a similar thread about a year ago. I've been using harmonizers for years, and I do like the harmonizer in the axe despite it's limitations since at least it has user-defined harmonies. Changing the interval on the fly wouldn't be super useful to me personally, because the harmony I use the most is a basic major-key harmony that gives typical Allmans/Boston type double lead harmonies which requires more than just two intervals. To really do this right, the harmony needs to jump to the octave rather than the 7th when you get to the 5th of the scale, otherwise it creates this undesirable major 7th harmony. The fifth, flatted sixth, and sixth all need to play back the octave. (I can post a pitch map if anyone cares; my program allows me to play most 70's double leads from reelin' in the years to boston to whatever). For the same reason the 3rd/4th thing wouldn't work for me either (it would be interesting, but especially with passing tones it would be a huge headache).

What I wanted was a simple, fast way to change (within a single patch) what some harmonizers would call the harmony key (but in my case on the axe, change the custom shift harmony, since I have a custom shift defined for each key). What I suggested was a "global harmony" function, where you could switch the scale you are using within a patch easily with a couple of keystrokes (Global > Harmony > User 1,2, etc). A little easier than going to the pitch block and changing it from there. It would be great to be able to do it with one or two keystrokes, and even better if it could be done on the fly as noted here.

I suppose you could just have a row of pitch blocks and activate them separately as someone suggested... a bit of a headache but maybe the only way to go at the moment. But if done by CC, how would you know which one you landed on? I guess the best option would be if you had a controller with enough buttons you could assign each one to turn on the pitch block you want and bypass the others.... I'll have to think about that..... but I think there could be a way....(thanks, you guys just blew my evening!).
 
jojo said:
...
To really do this right, the harmony needs to jump to the octave rather than the 7th when you get to the 5th of the scale, otherwise it creates this undesirable major 7th harmony. The fifth, flatted sixth, and sixth all need to play back the octave. (I can post a pitch map if anyone cares; my program allows me to play most 70's double leads from reelin' in the years to boston to whatever)
...
Click to expand...
Hey Jojo,
Would you? Please? I mean, post a pitch map? I (for one) do care... and am deeply interrested. I'd love to learn from it.

Daniel
 
jojo said:
I suppose you could just have a row of pitch blocks and activate them separately as someone suggested... a bit of a headache but maybe the only way to go at the moment. But if done by CC, how would you know which one you landed on? I guess the best option would be if you had a controller with enough buttons you could assign each one to turn on the pitch block you want and bypass the others.... I'll have to think about that..... but I think there could be a way....(thanks, you guys just blew my evening!).
Click to expand...

I used to play around with this a bit with my GT-8, but as you suggested, using the EXP pedal for continuous control to change between keys/scales/whatever was a bit too fiddly for it to ever be of much use to me.

To have a whole bunch of pitch blocks would at least take a crap load of CPU power. Just coz something's bypassed, doesn't mean it's not taking up CPU power. Don't know if there are any other more behind-the-scenes problems with that method, but pitch blocks take a fair bit of CPU power as it is, without having a fucktonne of them loaded up in one patch. :|
 
Chief said:
Hey Kevil
You obviously know a hell of a lot more than I do about this. Could you place a second pitch block in parallel and then engage/disengage one or the other to change the harmony? Don't know about the rest of it.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've tried that, but it's complicated to set it up. You first have to program Pitch 1 and Pitch 2 with the desired settings of course. Then you set up the exp pedal to ctrl byp mode and auto engage on both, and then you have to adjust the "start, mid, end and slope" settings for each block so that Pitch 1 kicks in at just above "0" and out at "100", and vice versa for Pitch 2. This will do the trick, but it takes a lot of tweaking, and it would have been much easier if you could just control the key and harmony directly..
 
jojo said:
I started a similar thread about a year ago. I've been using harmonizers for years, and I do like the harmonizer in the axe despite it's limitations since at least it has user-defined harmonies. Changing the interval on the fly wouldn't be super useful to me personally, because the harmony I use the most is a basic major-key harmony that gives typical Allmans/Boston type double lead harmonies which requires more than just two intervals. To really do this right, the harmony needs to jump to the octave rather than the 7th when you get to the 5th of the scale, otherwise it creates this undesirable major 7th harmony. The fifth, flatted sixth, and sixth all need to play back the octave. (I can post a pitch map if anyone cares; my program allows me to play most 70's double leads from reelin' in the years to boston to whatever). For the same reason the 3rd/4th thing wouldn't work for me either (it would be interesting, but especially with passing tones it would be a huge headache).

What I wanted was a simple, fast way to change (within a single patch) what some harmonizers would call the harmony key (but in my case on the axe, change the custom shift harmony, since I have a custom shift defined for each key). What I suggested was a "global harmony" function, where you could switch the scale you are using within a patch easily with a couple of keystrokes (Global > Harmony > User 1,2, etc). A little easier than going to the pitch block and changing it from there. It would be great to be able to do it with one or two keystrokes, and even better if it could be done on the fly as noted here.

I suppose you could just have a row of pitch blocks and activate them separately as someone suggested... a bit of a headache but maybe the only way to go at the moment. But if done by CC, how would you know which one you landed on? I guess the best option would be if you had a controller with enough buttons you could assign each one to turn on the pitch block you want and bypass the others.... I'll have to think about that..... but I think there could be a way....(thanks, you guys just blew my evening!).
Click to expand...

I'm very interested in this too! So this means you have set up one or more custom scales in your Axe-Fx to do something similar to what the Digitech Harmony man does with the "Triad-centered Shifting" then, choosing different harmonies that most likely will fit the chord in the actual key? Can you guide us through how to do that? I haven't tried fiddling with the custom scales yet..
 
rednebb said:
jojo said:
I started a similar thread about a year ago. I've been using harmonizers for years, and I do like the harmonizer in the axe despite it's limitations since at least it has user-defined harmonies. Changing the interval on the fly wouldn't be super useful to me personally, because the harmony I use the most is a basic major-key harmony that gives typical Allmans/Boston type double lead harmonies which requires more than just two intervals. To really do this right, the harmony needs to jump to the octave rather than the 7th when you get to the 5th of the scale, otherwise it creates this undesirable major 7th harmony. The fifth, flatted sixth, and sixth all need to play back the octave. (I can post a pitch map if anyone cares; my program allows me to play most 70's double leads from reelin' in the years to boston to whatever). For the same reason the 3rd/4th thing wouldn't work for me either (it would be interesting, but especially with passing tones it would be a huge headache).

What I wanted was a simple, fast way to change (within a single patch) what some harmonizers would call the harmony key (but in my case on the axe, change the custom shift harmony, since I have a custom shift defined for each key). What I suggested was a "global harmony" function, where you could switch the scale you are using within a patch easily with a couple of keystrokes (Global > Harmony > User 1,2, etc). A little easier than going to the pitch block and changing it from there. It would be great to be able to do it with one or two keystrokes, and even better if it could be done on the fly as noted here.

I suppose you could just have a row of pitch blocks and activate them separately as someone suggested... a bit of a headache but maybe the only way to go at the moment. But if done by CC, how would you know which one you landed on? I guess the best option would be if you had a controller with enough buttons you could assign each one to turn on the pitch block you want and bypass the others.... I'll have to think about that..... but I think there could be a way....(thanks, you guys just blew my evening!).
Click to expand...

I'm very interested in this too! So this means you have set up one or more custom scales in your Axe-Fx to do something similar to what the Digitech Harmony man does with the "Triad-centered Shifting" then, choosing different harmonies that most likely will fit the chord in the actual key? Can you guide us through how to do that? I haven't tried fiddling with the custom scales yet..
Click to expand...


I actually found out how to do it myself now, by setting up two custom scales, one adding harmonies 3,4 or 5 semitones below, the other 3,4 or 5 semitones above each scale note.
With a C major scale as example, a common setup would be as follows (I'm skipping the chromatic notes C#, D# etc.; you can just leave these alone if you're not gonna use them, or set them up as you want):

C shift: custom scale #1: -5 semi custom scale #2: 4 semi
D shift: custom scale #1: -3 semi (or -5 semi) custom scale #2: 3 semi
E shift: custom scale #1: -4 semi custom scale #2: 3 semi
F shift: custom scale #1: -3 semi (or -5 semi) custom scale #2: 4 semi
G shift: custom scale #1: -3 semi custom scale #2: 5 semi
A shift: custom scale #1: -4 semi custom scale #2: 3 semi
B shift: custom scale #1: -4 semi custom scale #2: 3 semi

This will work fine in most (or many) cases. Or you could just experiment, of course, and program it the way you want
(is this how you set it up, too, "jojo"?)

Remember to store these custom scales to the desired patch.
Yes, unfortunately they have to be stored to a specific patch, I would rather see that they could be stored in a "global bank" or something, like jojo is suggesting..

You really have a lot of options with these global custom scales! (you can set up 32 of them). So now I actually can get my Axe-Fx to do the "triad-centered shifting" thing that I love with my Harmony Man, cool! But still it's much more difficult doing this with the Axe-Fx, you'd have to make one custom scale for each key you want to use it in (which might take a lot of time and thinking..), with the H.Man you can just strum the chord and it changes the key for you. So I'm not selling it quite yet.. ;-)
 
Is there a poll and wish-post for these features?

I´ve just started to fiddle with the harmonizers and custom scales, hard to get a grip on. Guess I need to re-study all the scales and harmony correlation, that I´ve never figured out in school. I would really like to have the possibility to change the key and scale on the fly via CC.

/Mike
 
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