Guitar Level Problem?

GlennO said:
Obviously Leon didn't do that for whatever reason. The most likely explanation is he did what I mentioned back on page 1 and he simply connected his input block to an output 1 block and sent that to State of Epicity. Either it was an oversight on Leon's part or he didn't realize how State of Epicity would be using it. Unfortunately that caused some confusion for State of Epicity, but I don't think there's any great mystery here as to how to explain the high level in Leon's DI.
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fyi - I didn't mention this to try and highlight anyone's oversight - I just think that: in terms of the DI signal that enters an Axfx preset grid when re-amping, there is really only one correct version of that signal: the one that matches what was actually generated when the source guitar was initially played during DI capture, and again, I suspect shared DIs are reasonably assumed to be routable to Ax input without compensation unless otherwise stated (maybe no mystery to some, but ya, a sure way to create some confusion as evidenced here)
 
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FWIW, I do struggle with this a bit too. I don't use the Axe FX III as an audio interface. I connect it via SPDIF.

Getting a DI to a computer that represents the "true" output level of the guitar, seems like a bit of a minefield with the Axe FX III. If you use the USB 5 method, then you seem to be getting the true level.

But if you try and use SPDIF to capture a DI signal, it always seems a lot hotter to me. Even when setting the SPDIF/AES level to -18dB.

I personally would appreciate some instructions on how to get accurate DI's from the Axe FX III via SPDIF, because it isn't clear to me.

When I plug my guitars into my Neve DI that goes straight into my Antelope Audio Discrete 8 Pro audio interface, I get DI's like the top one in the original screenshot. When I record DI's from the Axe III by routing input 1 to output 2 (with output 2 being assigned to digital on the Axe III) I get hot signals like Leon's.

And those DI's often need to be attenuated to either reamp them into the Axe FX III, reamp through real valve amps, or use with other plugins.

I find the whole thing quite confusing.
 
GlennO said:
For detailed instructions on how to do that with spdif, see configuration #5 in the recording guide.
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Yes I've read it. But it doesn't quite work for me. It is a bit tricky to explain.

I think with my particular setup, I'd be introducing additional latency by using configuration 5. I need to double check it. But my main audio interface is a Presonus Quantum. It does not have its own routing or mixing capabilities built into it. They rely on entirely on the DAW, and thus the ASIO driver. So any signal I send to the Axe FX III via SPDIF is subject to latency equivalent to at least one buffer size - typically 64 samples.

The Discrete 8 does offer latency free mixing and routing capabilities (direct monitoring!) but this is my secondary card, and mainly carries my synth outboard via ADAT into the Quantum. The Quantum cannot act as a standalone interface either, so I cannot swap the order of these interfaces.

This would probably be a lot simpler if I had a nice RME audio interface, which would allow me to route my Hi-Z input directly to the SPDIF sends without any latency. But alas, I don't have the budget for the move right now.

All told though, it would be nicer if the Axe3 had a way to address the left and right of the outputs separately. Then it would be a case of simply routing Input 1 directly to Output 2 R inside the audio setup menu, and only using Output 2 L in the preset. I think that would get me what I want.
 
Orvillain said:
Getting a DI to a computer that represents the "true" output level of the guitar, seems like a bit of a minefield with the Axe FX III
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Not if you just plug straight into Axfx and route the Input1 Instr USB tap to DAW (USB 5/6) - no special routings or compensations required - you'll get a perfect DI that can be fed back thru Axfx via USB to input1 for re-amping. Not complicated / tried and true.
 
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sprint said:
Not if you just plug straight into Axfx and route the Input1 USB tap to DAW - no special routings or compensations required - you'll get a perfect DI that can be fed back thru Axfx via USB to input1 for re-amping. Not complicated / tried and true.
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I don't use it as an audio interface. Because reasons I already said :)
 
USB Input 1 is the processed signal from the grid (OUT 1 block, left channel). Use USB inputs 5 and 6 to get the signal from the Instrument jack. Routing an IN block directly to either OUT 1 or OUT2 on the grid will result in +18 dB of signal gain as those are not unity gain outputs, but rather line level. OUT 3 and OUT 4 are configured for unity gain and don't have the same +18 dB boost, but they are not directly recordable via USB.
 
mr_fender said:
USB Input 1 is the processed signal from the grid. Use USB inputs 5 and 6 to get the signal from the Instrument jack. Routing an IN block directly to either OUT 1 or OUT2 on the grid will result in +18 dB of signal gain as those are not unity gain outputs, but rather line level.
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✅ - I said "Input1 USB tap" - shouldv read "Instr" USB tap" (5/6)
 
Orvillain said:
I don't use it as an audio interface. Because reasons I already said :)
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config#5 is the way via A.I., but the key words there imo are "adjust the spdif input level on the Axe-FX I/O USB/AES page so the level coming into the grid matches the level you get when you plug your guitar directly into Axe-FX" (easier said than done acurately with my ears but maybe yours are better).
 
sprint said:
config#5 is the way via A.I., but the key words there imo are "adjust the spdif input level on the Axe-FX I/O USB/AES page so the level coming into the grid matches the level you get when you plug your guitar directly into Axe-FX" (easier said than done acurately with my ears but maybe yours are better).
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Aye, my SPDIF level is -18dB already, to account for the 18dB boost on output 1+2. There still seems to be something odd about my setup though. I'll check it out over the weekend and document a bit more. It may be I'm misunderstanding something.
 
Orvillain said:
Yes I've read it. But it doesn't quite work for me. It is a bit tricky to explain.

I think with my particular setup, I'd be introducing additional latency by using configuration 5. I need to double check it. But my main audio interface is a Presonus Quantum. It does not have its own routing or mixing capabilities built into it. They rely on entirely on the DAW, and thus the ASIO driver. So any signal I send to the Axe FX III via SPDIF is subject to latency equivalent to at least one buffer size - typically 64 samples.

The Discrete 8 does offer latency free mixing and routing capabilities (direct monitoring!) but this is my secondary card, and mainly carries my synth outboard via ADAT into the Quantum. The Quantum cannot act as a standalone interface either, so I cannot swap the order of these interfaces.

This would probably be a lot simpler if I had a nice RME audio interface, which would allow me to route my Hi-Z input directly to the SPDIF sends without any latency. But alas, I don't have the budget for the move right now.

All told though, it would be nicer if the Axe3 had a way to address the left and right of the outputs separately. Then it would be a case of simply routing Input 1 directly to Output 2 R inside the audio setup menu, and only using Output 2 L in the preset. I think that would get me what I want.
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As you’ve surmised, you have an unusual situation. One might even say you don’t have the right gear for reamping via spdif. Until you do, analog I/o might be your best option.
 
GlennO said:
As you’ve surmised, you have an unusual situation. One might even say you don’t have the right gear for reamping via spdif. Until you do, analog I/o might be your best option.
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Reamping is actually fine, because I can compensate for the latency using the DAW offset values.

It is more the concept of plugging into another DI and not the front of the Axe3, and using my audio interface to route audio into the Axe3, that kinda falls down with this setup.

I think I understand what the guide is saying in principle, but as you state, my gear isn't ideal for this. But ultimately it is the correct solution - I want to record a DI that I can use with any of my amp sources; whether it is Axe3, my real amps, ToneX, Helix Native, etc. To do that, I should avoid using Output 1+2 on the Axe3 as the source of my DI signal.

I'll experiment with this tomorrow. I've been window shopping an RME UFXIII which would probably solve all of this!
 
It's all the grease on my fingers from running them through my hair all day.

The clip I recorded was using USB 5/6. I won't have access to my Axe-Fx III until August since I'm currently playing away but I can record a clip with my FM3 tonight.
 
GlennO said:
With configuration #5, the DI level is about 20 dB higher than the guitar level, exactly as Leon's DI is.
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Had another go at reamping these, and found that I had to drop the slider for Leon's DI track in Reaper to -32 dB when sending it to the Axe III for reamping to make it sound anywhere close to normal.
 
GlennO said:
That's another thing I wanted to mention about your Reaper screenshot. I recommend using a stereo DI. Using a mono DI will generally give you a weaker input to the Axe-FX when re-amping. This is because presets almost always assume dual mono input to the amp block.
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The recorded track/clip itself being stereo vs. mono makes no difference for this, with Reaper at least. The important thing either way is to select the pair of USB (or SPDIF/AES) channels reaching the grid, not just one of them.
 
Bakerman said:
The recorded track/clip itself being stereo vs. mono makes no difference for this, with Reaper at least. The important thing either way is to select the pair of USB (or SPDIF/AES) channels reaching the grid, not just one of them.
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It depends on the particular DAW you're using and how you have the track i/o set up. That's why I said "generally". Using a mono DI can work in some circumstances, but recording a stereo DI always works, so I recommend using stereo. Seeing as how weak input level is the issue here, it seems like a good idea to avoid doing anything that could potentially reduce that input level.
 
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