Good big muff sound?

D

danielodland

Inspired
Hey!

I would love to get that thick, monstrous rhythm guitar sound from Siamese Dream (Smashing pumpkins), but I just can't get it with the AXE. For this sound, Billy used a Strat with some hot pickups into JCM800 modded for KT88's and an old big muff in front. Shouldn't be that hard to duplicate, but I just can't seem to get there=) It gets boomy right away.

Check out the rhythm guitar on Hummer, Geek USA or Today to see what I mean.
 
BTW, I am aware of the preset Smashed on the AXEchange, that's pretty close to a corgan lead sound. That's not what I'm looking for=)
 
Part of that big sound is that it is multi-tracked quite a few times to get that wall of sound. I understand what you mean though, I can't quite get the sound either.

Billy would turn the JCM800's master up all the way, and then would control the gain/volume with the preamp gain, so that it'd be clean, then he put the big muff in front, like you said. You could try that with the JCM800 model, but to my ears it ends up sounding weak when the drive is down low. You might want to try another amp in the same fashion that sounds bigger that way, and throw the big muff in front. Don't forget to add some delay!
 
Finaldo said:
Part of that big sound is that it is multi-tracked quite a few times to get that wall of sound. I understand what you mean though, I can't quite get the sound either.

Billy would turn the JCM800's master up all the way, and then would control the gain/volume with the preamp gain, so that it'd be clean, then he put the big muff in front, like you said. You could try that with the JCM800 model, but to my ears it ends up sounding weak when the drive is down low. You might want to try another amp in the same fashion that sounds bigger that way, and throw the big muff in front. Don't forget to add some delay!
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hey man thanks for the reply.

yes, I am aware that corgan is no stranger to multiple guitar tracks=) It is not really the bigness I want, it's that kinda gritty texture to the sound. Kinda like what it would sound like if you'd hook a guitar up with a Chevy Suburban or something =)

What you're saying is exactly what I've been doing. I've also experimented with different drive&EQ settings, along with different amps and such. Don't know that much about tonestacks but I've experimented a little..

Any more ideas?
 
Have you seen SP live? I saw them a couple times back in the MC&IS days and his live tone is much thinner than the album tone... it still sounds good. Chasing the album tone is tough, because of the multitracking and (probably) use of different mics/cabs, it's hard to get really close (at least for me).

If you're in stereo and playing through FRFR, I'd try a combo of mics and cabs and see if that can help get the Suburban aspect of it. :)
 
Hehe yeah I know, the live tone is not the same as on the albums. During MCIS touring he used a JMP1 with a mesa strategy 500 though, and not so much the muff. Currently he's using Diezel Herberts. Now thats a great amp. I had one but I had to sell it..

Yeah I know it's not easy getting the exact tone from an album due to mics, rooms, recording equipment, processing and all that.
 
It would probably be difficult to nail that tone. I don't know what specific model Muff is used in the Axe-Fx, but I'm going to assume it's most similar to the later model, which is gainer and grittier (and very inferior IMO).

It sounds like Corgan used an old Triangle spec Muff on that recording, and those sound MUCH different than the later models. There's no comparison. I've had a few and they were spot on Corgan, Gilmour, etc. They were loaded with the FS36999/FS37000 transistors (speculated to be relabeled old spec 2N5133's). They're much smoother, more sustain, much more clarity, etc.
 
OK. I'm assuming that's the problem then. The muff model differing from the one in the AXE. Would be strange though if the new muff model was the one recreated in the AXE. Everyone knows the old ones are better=)

Oh well. Maybe one day =)
 
danielodland said:
OK. I'm assuming that's the problem then. The muff model differing from the one in the AXE. Would be strange though if the new muff model was the one recreated in the AXE. Everyone knows the old ones are better=)

Oh well. Maybe one day =)
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the one on the axe-fx sounds extremely close to my modern Big muff (it doesn't have tonal range of mine). I believe Cliff tuned the big muff model to an original one (went to guitar center a bought a bunch of pedals)
 
Not sure what you mean, Java. He bought a bunch of pedals, so by original you mean a new one or an old one?

Yea, I've had a few muffs, only the newer ones though..I've had the Black russian made one with yellow typing, the silver/black/red NYC one, the Nano and the little big muff. Actually I preferred the Little Big Muff, however it's a bit too generous with the bottom end. I think the AXE one sounds pretty close to my regular NYC one.
 
danielodland said:
Not sure what you mean, Java. He bought a bunch of pedals, so by original you mean a new one or an old one?

Yea, I've had a few muffs, only the newer ones though..I've had the Black russian made one with yellow typing, the silver/black/red NYC one, the Nano and the little big muff. Actually I preferred the Little Big Muff, however it's a bit too generous with the bottom end. I think the AXE one sounds pretty close to my regular NYC one.
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Sorry, that didn't make a whole lot of sense. NYC one probably is what he tuned it to (have no idea about schematics). The NYC is the one I own.
 
Yeah, the originals are a rarity. The old Triangle Muff's were only made for a couple of years and go for $500+ on the used market. I sold my last one for $700. They're definitely the only way to get that authentic old Muff sound, unless you found some NOS 2N5133's that happened to be spec'd in the proper hfe to cop that sound, which is about the same odds as winning the lottery... :shock:

There's nothing wrong with the later Muffs. They're just more akin to OD pedals than the old sustainer/fuzz mentality the originals were built around. I could have sent in an original spec Triangle Muff to be examined... :p
 
I experimented a little more today with it, and got a pretty descent fuzzy sound with the muff and the buttery model. Not great though...fuzzes are hard to use man =) Love'em though...think I'm gonna get a Z Vex woolly mammoth. That's such a great sound. BTW, going in the studio next week, gonna bring the AXE. Let's see what happens =)
 
If you want something that sounds very similar to the old Muff's, get a Skreddy Mayo pedal. Those sound exceptionally close to the old Muffs. They're missing *something*, but I've never found anything that sounded closer. Not to mention they're true bypass, accept 9v adapters, and they're a lot more reliable to take on the road than the old Muffs. I think they're about as you can come without shelling out the cash for an original.
 
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