Gibson Petition

[shasha]

The question I had about politically driven motives here was based on the accusations that Gibson is one of the few guitar companies not in lock step with the current administration and that there was some kind of political motive behind the raid. You're talking about fines as motivation? Gibson isn't that big a company; they could go after someone like WalMart and have a much bigger payday if that was the case.

Plus didn't the gov't just give out billions to bail out a bunch of companies to keep the economy afloat? Do you really think that a million dollars or so in fines is going to be something that gets them all lathered up? Hell they'll spend that much just on the investigation and it's not like that money goes into their christmas bonuses; actually I wonder where that money goes now that you bring it up.

I think that it really comes down to people really looking at things and trying to read way too far into everything for something diabolical or unjust. I think that the poor communication is probably the biggest transgression here and that's more a matter of piss poor performance than malitious intent.

 

[shasha]

Just wanted to add that I'm not in here trying to ruffle feathers or defend one position or the other; I just wanted to state why I didn't feel comfortable signing the petition right now with the information provided up to this point.

 

[ug65]

Working in the Forrest products industry myself and having some knowledge of the various certifications such as FSC it certainly does seem like Gibson is getting the shaft here.

 

[sarge]

Sorry, with all the crap going on in this country this is the stuff this administrations DOJ goes after? I stand behind Gibson on this one, and agree with there assessment.

 

[s0c9]

Sorry, with all the crap going on in this country this is the stuff this administrations DOJ goes after? I stand behind Gibson on this one, and agree with there assessment.

Given that we are edgingon "taboo" subjects on this forum.. I'll keep it simple..

The good citizens of the USA need to wake up and educate themselves on fact and reality - we are individually very intelligent people but are politically sheeple. In this case, it's NOT the "administrations" DOJ - as in Obama's.. or Bush's or Clinton's or even LBJ's!

The DOJ - as like many other govt organizations like housing, labor et al., have rules and regulations and enforcement arms in place long before ANY of the aforementioned presidents took office. To be sure, we have political appointee's as head's of each of these departments, but they do not come in and and rewrite the rules every time we get a new administration. They are figure heads only, as day-to-day business in these dept's would go on with or without them!

So, the DOJ is enforcing laws enacted by some prior Congress, be those laws equitable, just or otherwise. As someone previously mentioned, Obama did not get up last week and tell the DOJ to go "get" Gibson because they do not agree with his policies. That's SO NAIVE!
So constantly bashing a President (current or otherwise) for this type of event is ignorance at best. The Lacey Act legislation was put in place by Congress - in this case by the Congress that existed under the Bush administration... so I seriously doubt that Obama is even aware of this situation. And no, I'm not saying this is Dubya's fault

NOTE: the Executive Branch has no authority to introduce or enact legislation. They merely rubber-stamp it to make it law.

 

[Sixstring]

Interesting debate going on here... So in the end who is victorious or what is actually accomplished with the Gibson saga? The DOJ gets their wood or does Gibson get the shaft :lol.

 

[stratos]

Working in the Forrest products industry myself and having some knowledge of the various certifications such as FSC it certainly does seem like Gibson is getting the shaft here.

Gibson should have gone "Green"..making guitars out of recycled materials.

 

[xlb3x]

The entire "green" movement is a scam. I for one am glad that people are finally realizing this.

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[yek]

The entire "green" movement is a scam. I for one am glad that people are finally realizing this.

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This on the day that it's exposed that there's now an large ozone hole on the Arctic as well.
Shut your eyes, close your ears, don't think of future generations and live happily in your own small world.

 

[jimfist]

with all apologies, my good sir, you could not be more incorrect. Please don't take this personally as I only wish to present some facts and the contrary point of view in order to clarify the debate.

The current administration's DOJ does have marching orders IMO, and DOES selectively determine the issues and people it wishes to prosecute (except in Gibson's case they have still not had charges brought against them for either raid). As measured and logical as your assessment may seem, it is demonstrably UNTRUE, and I will use the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case as a clear-cut example:

John Fund: Black Panther Voter Intimidation Case Dropped - WSJ.com

This case was tried and won, only to be "dropped" at the insistence of the DOJ. Please explain this to me since all attempts for clarity by the lawyers involved have been rebuffed by the DOJ. This type of activity is the fundamental fear the founders of this country had with respect to restriction of freedom at the hands of a stifling, over-reaching and all-powerful centralized federal government, whether it be Democrat or Republican controlled. This is not a partisan issue, but an inherent freedom issue.

Given that we are edgingon "taboo" subjects on this forum.. I'll keep it simple..

The good citizens of the USA need to wake up and educate themselves on fact and reality - we are individually very intelligent people but are politically sheeple. In this case, it's NOT the "administrations" DOJ - as in Obama's.. or Bush's or Clinton's or even LBJ's!

The DOJ - as like many other govt organizations like housing, labor et al., have rules and regulations and enforcement arms in place long before ANY of the aforementioned presidents took office. To be sure, we have political appointee's as head's of each of these departments, but they do not come in and and rewrite the rules every time we get a new administration. They are figure heads only, as day-to-day business in these dept's would go on with or without them!

So, the DOJ is enforcing laws enacted by some prior Congress, be those laws equitable, just or otherwise. As someone previously mentioned, Obama did not get up last week and tell the DOJ to go "get" Gibson because they do not agree with his policies. That's SO NAIVE!
So constantly bashing a President (current or otherwise) for this type of event is ignorance at best. The Lacey Act legislation was put in place by Congress - in this case by the Congress that existed under the Bush administration... so I seriously doubt that Obama is even aware of this situation. And no, I'm not saying this is Dubya's fault

NOTE: the Executive Branch has no authority to introduce or enact legislation. They merely rubber-stamp it to make it law.

 

[xlb3x]

with all apologies, my good sir, you could not be more incorrect. Please don't take this personally as I only wish to present some facts and the contrary point of view in order to clarify the debate.

The current administration's DOJ does have marching orders IMO, and DOES selectively determine the issues and people it wishes to prosecute (except in Gibson's case they have still not had charges brought against them for either raid). As measured and logical as your assessment may seem, it is demonstrably UNTRUE, and I will use the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case as a clear-cut example:

John Fund: Black Panther Voter Intimidation Case Dropped - WSJ.com

This case was tried and won, only to be "dropped" at the insistence of the DOJ. Please explain this to me since all attempts for clarity by the lawyers involved have been rebuffed by the DOJ. This type of activity is the fundamental fear the founders of this country had with respect to restriction of freedom at the hands of a stifling, over-reaching and all-powerful centralized federal government, whether it be Democrat or Republican controlled. This is not a partisan issue, but an inherent freedom issue.

Well said Jimfist. I think some one on here said it best "Our founding fathers would have been shooting already"

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[stratos]

with all apologies, my good sir, you could not be more incorrect. Please don't take this personally as I only wish to present some facts and the contrary point of view in order to clarify the debate.

The current administration's DOJ does have marching orders IMO, and DOES selectively determine the issues and people it wishes to prosecute (except in Gibson's case they have still not had charges brought against them for either raid). As measured and logical as your assessment may seem, it is demonstrably UNTRUE, and I will use the New Black Panther Party voter intimidation case as a clear-cut example:

John Fund: Black Panther Voter Intimidation Case Dropped - WSJ.com

This case was tried and won, only to be "dropped" at the insistence of the DOJ. Please explain this to me since all attempts for clarity by the lawyers involved have been rebuffed by the DOJ. This type of activity is the fundamental fear the founders of this country had with respect to restriction of freedom at the hands of a stifling, over-reaching and all-powerful centralized federal government, whether it be Democrat or Republican controlled. This is not a partisan issue, but an inherent freedom issue.

+1...it is a FREEDOM ISSUE. The balance of powers has been short circuited...most people under 30 have very little civics in their background. Most will surrender Liberty for peace, and deserve neither. We are a democratic Republic..not a democracy.
BTW..my remark about being "Green" was meant tongue in cheek.

 

[xlb3x]

This on the day that it's exposed that there's now an large ozone hole on the Arctic as well.
Shut your eyes, close your ears, don't think of future generations and live happily in your own small world.

There doesn't seem to be any conclusive science on either side of the climate change debate. Here is one that the greens never talk about. A large volcanic eruption can spew more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere during one eruption than all of humanity has since the beginning of the industrial revolution. So I feel no guilt for driving a gas powered vehicle. Instead of people blaming the USA let the lefties and socialists talk about the pollution in the former eastern block countries. They did far more damage to the environment than us. Getting back to the Gibson situation...all of these things are connected. It is just a result of all the nonsense going on.

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[FPFL]

xlb3x,

I'm going to strongly and respectfully disagree about whether or not the science is conclusive. It is in fact conclusive that the earth's temperature and weather patterns are changing - and changing in extreme ways in parts of the earth. The debate, such that there is one, is wholly on what % of it is man made, and no sane person is arguing single digit % in that debate.

So the debate is how much of global climate change is man made and at what rate are we changing things beyond cycles we may or may not understand.

Only in America have I seen people dismiss the consensus of thousands of scientists as some sort of global conspiracy to get grant funding or other angry AM Radio tinfoil hat theory. Its pretty embarrassing to me frankly as American and a man of science.

I'm not blaming the US or asking anyone to not drive a car, absurdities both; that said its a global problem that will need thoughtful answers and a logical debate outside of an election season in this country at least.

 

[jimfist]

xlb3x,

I'm going to strongly and respectfully disagree about whether or not the science is conclusive. It is in fact conclusive that the earth's temperature and weather patterns are changing - and changing in extreme ways in parts of the earth. The debate, such that there is one, is wholly on what % of it is man made, and no sane person is arguing single digit % in that debate.

So the debate is how much of global climate change is man made and at what rate are we changing things beyond cycles we may or may not understand.

Only in America have I seen people dismiss the consensus of thousands of scientists as some sort of global conspiracy to get grant funding or other angry AM Radio tinfoil hat theory. Its pretty embarrassing to me frankly as American and a man of science.

I'm not blaming the US or asking anyone to not drive a car, absurdities both; that said its a global problem that will need thoughtful answers and a logical debate outside of an election season in this country at least.

Very few of today's politicians have the INTEGRITY requisite to be worthy of the public offices they hold. If only they would let the science to the scientists. This is NOT by a long shot "settled science". Consensus does NOT = science. Contrary peer revues of many climate theories are routinely buried. Direct factual contradictions to long-held beliefs are suppressed by the media.

I believe this guy, Prof. Richard S. Lindzen, professor of meteorology at Mass. Institute of Technology:

Richard S. Lindzen: The Climate Science Isn't Settled - WSJ.com

 

[s0c9]

No matter the science, global warming IS a fact, and IS happening. Plenty of evidence to support that.
What isn't settled - by science, opine or theory - is the root cause and if it will continue to increase over time, or 10 (or 100) years from now, start to decrease.
Is it yet another blip in the changing average temps ?
Is it going to melt the polar ice caps and raise the sea level 30 feet over the next 50 years?
We don't know, and that's the issue. The scientific rationale is being manipulated by both sides.

 

[ug65]

No matter the science, global warming IS a fact, and IS happening. Plenty of evidence to support that.

Where is this evidence? We haven't even been measuring climate that long in the grand scheme of things. Who's to say this isn't a normal cycle of things?

 

[s0c9]

Where is this evidence? We haven't even been measuring climate that long in the grand scheme of things. Who's to say this isn't a normal cycle of things?

I didn't say that it wasn't a normal cycle, and inferred that it might well part of one. Read the post pls. The average global temp IS increasing. That IS fact. What isn't fact is the root cause. I already stated that.

 

[jimfist]

No matter the science, global warming IS a fact, and IS happening. Plenty of evidence to support that.
What isn't settled - by science, opine or theory - is the root cause and if it will continue to increase over time, or 10 (or 100) years from now, start to decrease.
Is it yet another blip in the changing average temps ?
Is it going to melt the polar ice caps and raise the sea level 30 feet over the next 50 years?
We don't know, and that's the issue. The scientific rationale is being manipulated by both sides.

Well, it would appear that depends really on whose data you choose to believe, and it seems to me that there are enough reputable sources of global temperature data to question exactly what trend we are currently in. This is why the whole "Global Warming" movement has conveniently been re-dubbed "Global Climate Change". It is unfortunate that we must consider political and financial motivations when discussing scientific theories, as the conclusion of this article points out:

Painting by numbers: NASA's peculiar thermometer [printer-friendly] • The Register

See also Al Gore and the Carbon Credit Exchange. Cha-ching! Creators of carbon credit scheme cashing in on it

When I was in grade school in the 1970s, I do recall all of my science teachers freaking out about the "fact" we were headed for another ice age, and that there would be global population explosion and serious food shortage, this c/o Paul R. Ehrlich. Funny thing is, now 35 years later none of his most catastrophic and fantastic predictions came true, but not humbled by any of this, somehow he is still propped up as some kind of saint to "the cause". In my world, I would have lost my job. In the upside-down world of elitist academia, you are rewarded for the purity of your efforts to help institute a political agenda rather than actual facts of your findings.

Only within the last 60 years have we had the technology to make a modicum of sense of the vast amount of data that comprises comprehensive climate study. That is the blink of an eye over the course of history, yet the self-righteous amongst us think they know everything there is about the subject and jam it down our throat at every turn. Would someone please just be intellectually honest enough to admit that the scientific community still may not know what it doesn't know?

 

[ug65]

I didn't say that it wasn't a normal cycle, and inferred that it might well part of one. Read the post pls. The average global temp IS increasing. That IS fact. What isn't fact is the root cause. I already stated that.

So where is the evidence? The Ohio temperature is decreasing, but thats because its October. What are you suggesting it is increasing over? A month ago, a year ago, a decade ago? The FACT is that we don't have enough history to know if this is a normal cycle or if in fact the global temp is "increasing".