Gain Tone and Feeling

[jephjacques]

the solution is to give yourself enough hearing damage that you can't tell the difference anymore, just like real rockstars

 

[Bman]

Using my wireless, go out to FOH and audition each one to see how they compare.

If this is a possibility, then you should do this. Check that box. Otherwise you're left wondering. Maybe you can do it at soundcheck?

 

[tysonlt]

Following with interest. I moved to IEM a while ago and it was an adjustment, but now I love it. Last night we gigged with a LOUD drummer, so we all had stage monitors, but I used IEM anyway, partly to protect my ears. As @Greg Ferguson mentioned above, it's true that having a monitor as well as IEM was in fact awesome.

I hear ya regarding gain too. I often find I have a good sound at home and then waaaay too much gain live. I don't know why that is, but regarding more gain in IEM, I can only think that perhaps you can hear every little sizzle right in your ears, but in a monitor, competing with the room and the other musos, perhaps it's actually the highs that you're not hearing as much?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Following with interest. I moved to IEM a while ago and it was an adjustment, but now I love it. Last night we gigged with a LOUD drummer, so we all had stage monitors, but I used IEM anyway, partly to protect my ears. As @Greg Ferguson mentioned above, it's true that having a monitor as well as IEM was in fact awesome.

I’m glad that the dual experience helped.

I hear ya regarding gain too. I often find I have a good sound at home and then waaaay too much gain live. I don't know why that is, but regarding more gain in IEM, I can only think that perhaps you can hear every little sizzle right in your ears, but in a monitor, competing with the room and the other musos, perhaps it's actually the highs that you're not hearing as much?

Thinking back to Cliff’s “volume” thread, it’s all about the stage AND FOH volume. If you can hear the sound from FOH on the stage, then it can affect your gain. It might take a second, or a fraction of one, to hit a wall and bounce back, but if it returns to the stage it will have energy to impart to the guitar. It might be in phase or out at that point but it is still part of the equation.

That tells me that, once again, he’s right and we tend to use too much gain in our presets. We probably do with our regular amps too but possibly the ratio of direct sound to indirect, reflected, sound outweighs its effect?

I think the pendulum swung too far with silent stages and purely in-ear monitoring. We lose something with string instruments without the acoustic feedback, at least electric guitars in any sort of rock idiom will. Keyboards, brass and horns and percussion don’t need or really want it, but it’s an important part of the rock guitar’s sound, and possibly the bass’s too and I can’t imagine playing without something reinforcing the sound of my guitar on stage, it’d be about as fulfilling as playing an electric guitar without the amplifier.

 

[skolacki]

The funny thing is, I don't use those settings and there are times I'd swear one of my guitars was trying to go into feedback when I'm wearing my headphones. They're open-back, but they're not inordinately loud, I think it's just that the guitar is very sensitive because it'll do it when the amp is really quiet too. It's a fun guitar that way.

I get that too sometimes. Makes no sense but it starts to sing a little on my open back phones.

 

[scottp]

I can remember having my Marshall half stack behind me, using 1, 4x12, slant cab only running the top 2 speakers.
When the gain and volume were just right, it was magic! What a great feeling when everything was dialed in perfect.
Those were the days before IEM.

 

[JoKeR III]

I have been using IEM

Which IEMs are you using? I've been using IEMs for almost 20 years now and have experienced what you're describing with some Shure and Westones. I now have custom molded 64 Audio in ears and they sound exactly like what is sent to FOH. There are some less expensive options like Aurisonic/Fender in ears that I used prior to the custom molds that have great sound and tones translate to FOH fairly well.

 

[warlockII]

I wish I could dial in the FOH to sound as "perfect" as my 64 Audio IEM's. My experience (other than time) is the same as yours JoKeR III

 

[scottp]

Which IEMs are you using? I've been using IEMs for almost 20 years now and have experienced what you're describing with some Shure and Westones. I now have custom molded 64 Audio in ears and they sound exactly like what is sent to FOH. There are some less expensive options like Aurisonic/Fender in ears that I used prior to the custom molds that have great sound and tones translate to FOH fairly well.

I currently use KZ ZS10 Pro's. They work very well for me with the Comply memory foam tips.

Before those I did custom mold Alclairs that cost about $600.
I also tried the Shure SE 215's.

Unfortunately the Alclairs were a waste of money, the sound was awful.
The Shure's don't sound as good as the KZ ZS 10 Pro's.

I had a chance to compare all 3 side by side.

 

[Randall d]

I don't see what you are listening to the IE's with at home. Direct out of the Axe? I also would like a better description of what you perceive to be the effect of lower gain. Less distortion? Less sustain? Perhaps the IE's are compressing (or the system you have them plugged into. Compression can definitely give the illusion of more gain.

I have Alclairs and they sound great! What model did you get? Perhaps yours are damaged. Did you contact the company? I am sure they would take a look at them for you. They have excellent customer service.

 

[ElMuchoDingo]

also Check the output level of the live in ears and guitar wireless especially if you use a cable at home. my shure wireless has an output gain, those would be two sources where the gain you hear is changed. Also if the monitors have any dsp ( I didn’t see what type or brand they were) dsp changes can have some effect. Plugging your ears into the axe vs wireless may have a output level issue that could affect gain heard.

 

[blastbeatdown]

I’m resurrecting this thread rather than creating my own. I dial in tones at my studio desk with A7X monitors, and I’ve noticed a lot more perceived gain through my Redsound mf.10’s and headphones. on my monitors it’s just right, I perhaps wouldn’t mind even a little more. But on my FRFR and headphones, it’s absolutely soaked with gain. Has anyone experienced something similar?

The mf.10’s are reasonably transparent and don’t seem to hype frequencies to my ears, but that certainly could be the case. The headphones are nice but certainly not flat, and who cares because I’m the only one hearing that. I’m familiar with the fletcher munson curve and I account for that with an EQ block when playing at loud volumes. But to my understanding that makes the highs and lows more apparent with volume, so I would think it would be the other way around, with the gain structure of the tone more accentuated at low volumes when the mids are more perceivable. Thoughts?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I dial in tones at my studio desk with A7X monitors, and I’ve noticed a lot more perceived gain through my Redsound mf.10’s and headphones. on my monitors it’s just right, I perhaps wouldn’t mind even a little more. But on my FRFR and headphones, it’s absolutely soaked with gain. Has anyone experienced something similar?

Yes, and it’s to be expected. You are not running the A7X at an equivalent volume to your MF10s, they’re too quiet so you compensate by turning up the gain, then, when the volume is louder the coupling increases the gain beyond what you want.

The "Modelers Don't Clean Up with the Volume Knob" Myth explains what is happening and how to fix it.

I purposely reduced my gain in my presets because it was too much on stage. Now, if I want more at home I enable a Drive block or the Input Boost in the Amp block.

The mf.10’s are reasonably transparent and don’t seem to hype frequencies to my ears, but that certainly could be the case. The headphones are nice but certainly not flat, and who cares because I’m the only one hearing that.

You should care because you are not getting the sound that the modeler is actually generating.

Use compensating curves to flatten the output of the headphones. Once you do that then you can make EQ changes and have a reasonable certainty that the sound will translate well through the MF10s without additional equalization.

I’m familiar with the fletcher munson curve and I account for that with an EQ block when playing at loud volumes.

That’s backwards from what is recommended. EQ at stage volume with flat sound, either with the compensated headphones or preferably the MF10s. Then, at lower volumes, you already know the sound is right so don’t mess with the EQ in the preset. If you want more bass or treble at low volume, which is what Fletcher-Munson tells us will happen, then add a little compensation using a GEQ or PEQ block immediately before the OUT 1 block, or using the global EQ, but be sure to disable it when on stage.

If your listening environment is not treated it’s going to affect the sound of your speakers too.

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/tree/master/results/ has compensation curves for many different headphones.

But to my understanding that makes the highs and lows more apparent with volume, so I would think it would be the other way around, with the gain structure of the tone more accentuated at low volumes when the mids are more perceivable.

Yes, the highs and lows become more apparent because of Fletcher-Munson, but the gain increases as the volume grows because the acoustic coupling increases the signal being sent to the amp or modeler, and that makes the sound fatter, often flubby.

 

[blastbeatdown]

Thanks for the MEGA detailed response. I appreciate it. I “don’t care” about the headphones because it’s only for late night jamming, and I wouldn’t make any adjustments to my tone in that context. I care more about how my recorded tone translates to loud volumes. Thanks again.