FX Blocks that Crossfade In and Out?

[Dr. Dipwad]

Okay, this is a presale "just curious" question:

I'm reading the manual for the Axe FX II. I see that it's possible for a given FX block to mute input as a way of turning it on or off: Quite cool.

Now, that'd turn it off instantly. But is there any way to toggle an FX block on and off in a way that sort of crossfades between on and off?

I mean, I'm imagining myself hitting a footswitch on the MFC-101 and hearing the pitch shifter or fuzzbox or whatever not cut of instantly, but gradually be replaced over a second or two with the dry shunt. And then, hitting the same footswitch again, and having the effect crossfade back in, as if it was going from 100% dry to 100% wet over a couple of seconds' time.

I understand that I can do this with two parallel paths and a mixer. But is there a way to do it that's already built in to the FX block itself? What governs the transition time? A parameter in the FX block, or do I have to rig up a special controller, like an ADSR or something?

Thanks.

 

[javajunkie]

There is an input gain parameter on many effects that does this. There are also 4 volume blocks, 2 mixer blocks, and 4 filter blocks that can accomplish similar results.

The delays, reverb, and pitch all have input gain. Plus some others i believe. Drive has a mix parameter for mixing wet/dry.

 

[chris]

Pretty sure the normal bypass of a block has no timing option, it's either on or off. But with the mix and input parameters mentioned above, there are a bunch of controllers available to possibly make your idea work. I've really never heard anyone fade out a chorus sound then back in, but sounds like a neat idea! I would attack this with an expression pedal, but it depends how many of these you are gonna go for at once.

 

[Dr. Dipwad]

Javajunkie:

Okay, I found the part of the manual you referenced regarding Input Gain. For the appropriate effects, scaling the Input Gain from 100% to 0% would do it. For the others (e.g. Drive), taking the Mix from 100% to 0% would do the trick.

Now I can immediately see, from reading the manual, how it's possible to govern such parameters with an expression pedal if I wanted to control it that way.

But what about if I wanted to assign a footswitch that'd toggle the effect on and off...not instantly but with a "glide time?" How would I do that? Would assigning an ADSR to the footswitch work?

I mean, from what I see with ADSR's, when you trigger them they have to start at zero; they go up to a certain amount, and then after some time they fall back to zero.

So I can see how, with a single footswitch-press, I could make delay wetness go from 0% to 100%...but not how I'd keep it there. The release would come along and bring it back to 0%.

And I can't see any way to trigger an ADSR to start at 100% and glide down to 0%, and stay there.

And of course what I was looking for was one switch to do both: A sort of slow action toggle, like this:

(1.) Playing a dry rhythm sound...
(2.) But then a part of the song needing a gradual increase in delay wetness approaches...
(3.) I hit the footswitch, and gradually the echoes begin to fade in over several seconds as I play...
(4.) The section needing echoes ends, so I hit the same footswitch again, still playing...
(5.) ...and the delay wetness gradually glides back to 0% again as I continue to play.

I'm thinking of making this a feature request, if it can't be done by being clever with controllers and modifiers.

But if it can be done, I'd like to know before making an arse of myself with an unnecessary feature request!

 

[Admin M@]

Your example and many more like it can be done with modifiers.

You can use a footswitch to glide INPUT GAIN or any other parameter which allows realtime control.
There's a built-in "damping" for changes, which changes the binary switch action into gradual curves.

The change can occur over anything from 0-1000 ms (slower even with some tricks...)

Note that "BYPASS" is not able to be damped, but MIX and LEVEL are.

 

[markyd]

Your example and many more like it can be done with modifiers.

You can use a footswitch to glide INPUT GAIN or any other parameter which allows realtime control.
There's a built-in "damping" for changes, which changes the binary switch action into gradual curves.

The change can occur over anything from 0-1000 ms (slower even with some tricks...)

Note that "BYPASS" is not able to be damped, but MIX and LEVEL are.

Matt,
What are those "tricks?" As we talked about at last years amps show in LA, an 8 second cross fade is using the damping is something I have wanted for a long time. Is there another way to do this?
Thanks,
Mark

 

[Dr. Dipwad]

You can use a footswitch to glide INPUT GAIN or any other parameter which allows realtime control.
There's a built-in "damping" for changes, which changes the binary switch action into gradual curves.

Oh, yeah, I get it now! Excellent!

The change can occur over anything from 0-1000 ms (slower even with some tricks...)

Huh. I'd like to know what those tricks are. Now that you relate this feature to damping rather than ASDR (I was really barking up the wrong tree on that one, eh?) it seems so obvious how to do it...but from the manual it seems equally obvious that 1000ms is the upper end of the damping. So what other damping can you give it, other than the maximum damping? Is there a way to trigger more damping with the end of the previous damping to add two "dampings" (so, up to 2000ms) or something like that?

Y'know, damping of up to one second is cool, but...it seems to me that several seconds would be even cooler, and it seems to me that a note-value interval (e.g. a multiple of quarter notes or eighth notes up to 16 quarter notes) would allow wild stuff in this area.

(Imagine an eight bar solo that gradually changes from slightly gritty to a searing lead while you're playing it, without you having to touch a thing.)

 

[jimfist]

Oh, yeah, I get it now! Excellent!



Huh. I'd like to know what those tricks are. Now that you relate this feature to damping rather than ASDR (I was really barking up the wrong tree on that one, eh?) it seems so obvious how to do it...but from the manual it seems equally obvious that 1000ms is the upper end of the damping. So what other damping can you give it, other than the maximum damping? Is there a way to trigger more damping with the end of the previous damping to add two "dampings" (so, up to 2000ms) or something like that?

Y'know, damping of up to one second is cool, but...it seems to me that several seconds would be even cooler, and it seems to me that a note-value interval (e.g. a multiple of quarter notes or eighth notes up to 16 quarter notes) would allow wild stuff in this area.

(Imagine an eight bar solo that gradually changes from slightly gritty to a searing lead while you're playing it, without you having to touch a thing.)

Yeah, this would make a great advanced tutorial for modifier control. Posting a preset with description would be a GREAT way to learn more about this stuff!

I have a vague but general understanding of how you could assign a switch as an Ext Ctrl to trigger the RUN parameter of a sequencer or LFO, for example, with that sequencer/LFO controlling the volume parameter of an effect block (in order to increase the ramp time beyond the 1000ms limit of the Damp parameter). What has me puzzled at the moment is how to control the behavior of the "fade in/fade out" so that the first switch press brings the levels from 0% to 100%, and holds it there until the second button press of the same switch, which then brings it back down to 0%. (Would some of this function also have to do with the MIDI pedal switch itself?) I can see how you could do this with 2 switches, but not with just 1.

This would be a very slick option to automating what would normally be done manually with an exp pedal.

I know that users like M@, Javajunkie, Bakerman, Simeon, et al have discussed this stuff on the forum before. Maybe this would be a great place to have a real in-depth rundown of how to make all of this work.

Also, could someone confirm for me this: once a control modifier has been assigned to a parameter (such as VOLUME on a volume block), that you no longer have the ability to assign ANOTHER controller to this parameter. Is this correct? (edit: ignore this next section...it is complete bullshit that I must have come up with in some alternate universe or something...) If so, it bears mentioning to the OP that this behavior is unlike that of the G-Force, which allows for overlapping control modifiers for a single parameter (uhhh... NO IT DOESN'T). The G-Force is very economical in this respect, and I used the CRAP out of that feature when it was in my live rack (Err...NO I DIDN'T).

 

[Bakerman]

1000ms damping actually takes more like 4-5 seconds for full travel, on the Ultra at least. The damping is more like time to travel halfway, then there's deceleration toward the end. IMO higher max. damping and a way to adjust the rate curve would be nice.

this behavior is unlike that of the G-Force, which allows for overlapping control modifiers for a single parameter

Are you sure about that? I had one for a while and don't remember that being possible. G-Force manual: "Each modifier can be connected to several parameters at the same time but each parameter can have only one source."

 

[jimfist]

Well, Bakerman, you've made a liar out of me before, so I'm going to go home after work and double-check whether my memory serves me correctly regarding the G-Force. LOL! In my own defense, I had WAAAAYYYY too much fun in the 1990s, and the remaining brain cells I have are clinging for dear life.

As for the 4-5 seconds vs 1000ms damping thing, yeah, I hear ya. But for transitions lasting a bit longer than that...for those who would dig that kind of...length?

 

[javajunkie]

1000ms damping actually takes more like 4-5 seconds for full travel, on the Ultra at least. The damping is more like time to travel halfway, then there's deceleration toward the end. IMO higher max. damping and a way to adjust the rate curve would be nice.



Are you sure about that? I had one for a while and don't remember that being possible. G-Force manual: "Each modifier can be connected to several parameters at the same time but each parameter can have only one source."

It is the same on the Axe-fxII

 

[markyd]

At the amp show I talked with Cliff about this and he thought that an "X10" switch that would multiply the damping factor by 10 (turning a 1sec crossfade into a 10sec) was a good idea and he would consider including that in a future firmware version. I use a lot of long crossfades in the style of music I play (fading loops in and out etc.) I use an old Simmons midi mixer to do this, I sure would love to get rid of it!

 

[jimfist]

It is the same on the Axe-fxII

...and the winner of this week's EGG ON FACE award goes to...

yours truly!

OK, I used to know what I knew, but now I'm finding that I no longer know (or remember correctly) what I thought I knew...

I don't know what I used to use the crap out of on the G-Force, but it certainly wasn't overlapping multiple external contollers/modifiers on single parameters. Thank you for pointing out this correction Bakerman (again!), and Javajunkie. I'll edit the previous posts, noting my error, as I hate incorrect information as much as anyone...and it really smells like farts knowing I'm the one posting it! ops

So...off I go to suck my thumb and pee myself in the corner...

 

[clarky]

Your example and many more like it can be done with modifiers.

You can use a footswitch to glide INPUT GAIN or any other parameter which allows realtime control.
There's a built-in "damping" for changes, which changes the binary switch action into gradual curves.

The change can occur over anything from 0-1000 ms (slower even with some tricks...)

Note that "BYPASS" is not able to be damped, but MIX and LEVEL are.

jeez... you've now gone and sent me off on another little research project... lmao....