FW 12 leave the lights on...I mean CAB block

[javajunkie]

Btw, there is no hum eliminator or noise eliminator on the 1/4 in on output 1. They are just unbalanced connections of the same signal. You are probably noticing the reduction in signal level from the unbalanced connection.

Edit to avoid bad info: there is humbuster wiring on output 1 - it only works using humbuster cables into unbalanced connections.

 

[tempus fugit]

With all respect: If this works for you - and at the end of the day, that`s all what counts - good. Go for it. But when it comes to comparison beetween a Marshall JMP MV head into your 4x12 cabinet vs. a Friedman BE + Basketweave IR + Global EQ into the same cabinet to match that (whatever you mean with same/similiar "characteristic") this is to me something like beetween "digging in the dirt" and "trial and error": 1) Wouldn`t be a Plexi Sim a better pre-matched sim to the actual head? 2) You filter the friedman through two more EQ stages than the actual head (Global EQ: Filter1; Basketweave: Filter2) - at the end the sim and the actual head goes into filter3: the real cabinet. Maybe it is possible to filter the hell out andcompensate different filter stages against each other that at the end the magic happens that the resualt ends up in anything comparable to the JVM head. Nothing against that - if it works and if the resualt satisfy you. Good! But a comprehensible course of action to compare two signal chains and find out in which detailed department of the signal chain differences beetween both soundchains happen and surgically compensate those differences to get the best match is IMHO another way than yours Sorry :star: This is a bit to crazy to me

I get it
It's not supposed to work this way.
And for all I know people trying out this preset are horrified...lol

I wish I could roll this whole shebang of both rigs into Fractal HQ and have them show me how to get where I wanna go using the suggested methodology.
The box is truly an amazing piece of kit that has a million rabbit holes which tempt me and has inspired me to write new material this year.
I've been primarily using it to record preproduction for the next KG album and demo tracks for the other two bands I'm in. I plan on using it in the studio as well.
It wasn't until FW 12.xx and this recent A/B exercise that I thought. OK I think I'm ready to take this on the road now. Hence me buying a second rig.

Re Plexi sim
I usually use NON. Master volume vintage marshall heads live. Using a combination of bias, and stacked OD pedals to get from clean, to crunch to saturation. But I picked up a couple of MV JMP heads this year and so I started using them more recently, giving the NMV heads a break.
I still run the JMP MV heads cleaner than most do and use the Kalamazoo pedal to get me to higher gain territory when needed.
I'm am tempted to try and record a portion of the A/B exercise to demonstrate how I'm matching the real Marshall's characteristics ( bass, mid, treb, pres, gain, vol. pick attack etc) both in rolled of gtr vol knob mode and wide open.
But I really don't have the gear at home to grab a quality mic'd cab recording.

All I know is the other guitarist in KG is a recording egr by trade
He was very skeptical about me using a modeler for live.
He knows nothing about how I've configured it or really what's under the hood of the Axe.

I just showed up with the AFX and Matrix to a rehearsal. I tucked it behind the cab
We ran through a few songs and he thought I was playing through the head of my regular Marshall rig.
Then I told him nope, I'm using AFX2and Matrix
He was impressed and said that the AFX sounded great
We ran through some more songs and he agreed that it was sounding great.

 

[yek]

I have some EV 12L speakers. At verylow volume I can enable Cab simulation and that makes them sound great, adding bass etc. But when I turn the speakers up, the added cab simulation turns the entire sound into a mushy swampy mess.

 

[Kriig]

A lot of cool sound happened by accident. Right or wrong does not matter imho and it seems we all agreed on this.

In the end it`s a lot of personal opinions, and if the player likes were he/she are, stay there.

Earth would be boring, but peaceful without personal opinions... IMHO

 

[Danny Danzi]

Btw, there is no hum eliminator or noise eliminator on the 1/4 in outs. They are just unbalanced connections of the same signal. You are probably noticing the reduction in signal level from the unbalanced connection.

Hi Java, I'm not one to doubt you, but on page 10 of my manual at the bottom, it says "New humbuster technology, featured on left and right output 1 and output 2 unbalanced (1/4) jacks uses a simple TRS-to-TS cable to significantly reduce ground hum."

Then on page 160, section 16.9 it mentions it again. So unless my unit or my owners manual is different than yours, it appears it has something along the lines of what I mentioned. LOL!

 

[Danny Danzi]

Yes I pretty much discovered the cab effect by accident. I was going back and forth between the rigs and was double checking to see if I had turned off cabs in Global and hit the wheel into Active
And thought wow that sounds much closer to what I'm going for. And just kept going from there.
I tackled this hiss later that day with the advice of others on the thread. Mainly adjusting the amp level value. Coincidentally I too am using the 1/4 jacks. But thanks for the tips.
PS I REALLY enjoyed your comments on dialing in tones and EQing that were posted in the most recent beta thread.

I hear ya....whatever works, right? It's funny man, all the pre-amps I've ever used....I've always left the cab emulation on. Even with my 2101's especially. All the pre-amps I've tried seem to get really raspy without the speaker sim. Like the other poster mentioned...some of the coolest sounds of all time happened by accident. I wish I could turn the amp and cab emulation off....it almost makes me think something is wrong with my Axe or something is wrong with me. Probably both! Hahaha!

Thanks for the kind words....glad you enjoyed that other thread. I did as well.

 

[javajunkie]

Hi Java, I'm not one to doubt you, but on page 10 of my manual at the bottom, it says "New humbuster technology, featured on left and right output 1 and output 2 unbalanced (1/4) jacks uses a simple TRS-to-TS cable to significantly reduce ground hum."

Then on page 160, section 16.9 it mentions it again. So unless my unit or my owners manual is different than yours, it appears it has something along the lines of what I mentioned. LOL!

Ahh yes, I forgot those are on output 1 as well (that wasn't put in the manual until later, I think). Regardless, it eliminates ground issues, not hiss. It does it in a similar way as the XLR balanced connections do.

If your input to the Rocktron in unbalanced (I think they are) then 1/4" with a humbuster cable is the way to go.

It only matters if you are using a humbuster cable. Are you using a humbuster cable?
If you are not using a humbuster cable they are just unbalanced outs.


Added:
Looked at the Velocity 300 manual. They are unbalanced so humbusters are probably a great idea for you. But for a balanced connection the XLRs should be used.

 

[zenaxe]

I have some EV 12L speakers. At verylow volume I can enable Cab simulation and that makes them sound great, adding bass etc. But when I turn the speakers up, the added cab simulation turns the entire sound into a mushy swampy mess.

This thought crossed my mind as well. When running through my 2x12 a cab, having the sim enabled almost always sounds terrible unless the volume is low enough to not bring out the physical cab's intrinsic character.

As others have noted, if you are loving your rig more power to you. But if it were my setup, the engineer in me would immediately go into debug mode because the behavior is counter to the theoretical/canonical operation of the system.

 

[Danny Danzi]

Ahh yes, I forgot those are on output 1 as well (that wasn't put in the manual until later, I think). Regardless, it eliminates ground issues, not hiss. It does it in a similar way as the XLR balanced connections do.

If your input to the Rocktron in unbalanced (I think they are) then 1/4" with a humbuster cable is the way to go.

It only matters if you are using a humbuster cable. Are you using a humbuster cable?
If you are not using a humbuster cable they are just unbalanced outs.


Added:
Looked at the Velocity 300 manual. They are unbalanced so humbusters are probably a great idea for you. But for a balanced connection the XLRs should be used.

Thanks....totally understood. No, not using any humbuster cables....to be honest I can't remember the difference I was hearing between XLR and 1/4....I need to try it again. But whatever it was, the 1/4 was the better choice for me. It must have been a little hum I was hearing...man, I honestly can't remember. But in all my pre-amp rigs, I've always come out of them XLR and then 1/4 TRS on the other end into my power amp and it's been perfect. For whatever reason, I wasn't happy doing it that way with my Axe so I went full 1/4 and whatever was happening, stopped. It must have been hum or something...I'll check on that though because now I'm curious. Thanks for the advice.

 

[javajunkie]

Thanks....totally understood. No, not using any humbuster cables....to be honest I can't remember the difference I was hearing between XLR and 1/4....I need to try it again. But whatever it was, the 1/4 was the better choice for me. It must have been a little hum I was hearing...man, I honestly can't remember. But in all my pre-amp rigs, I've always come out of them XLR and then 1/4 TRS on the other end into my power amp and it's been perfect. For whatever reason, I wasn't happy doing it that way with my Axe so I went full 1/4 and whatever was happening, stopped. It must have been hum or something...I'll check on that though because now I'm curious. Thanks for the advice.

gotcha,

If you didn't see, there is a ground lift switch on the back for XLRs. Of course this will only work for balanced connections.

BTW, manual has the wiring for humbuster cables or you can just order them from here:
Best-Tronics Mfg., Inc.: FAS05-XX

 

[Danny Danzi]

Hahaha yeah, I never noticed the ground lift until I looked back there again and then read your message. Thanks again for the awesome info, java...much appreciated.

 

[tempus fugit]

This thought crossed my mind as well. When running through my 2x12 a cab, having the sim enabled almost always sounds terrible unless the volume is low enough to not bring out the physical cab's intrinsic character. As others have noted, if you are loving your rig more power to you. But if it were my setup, the engineer in me would immediately go into debug mode because the behavior is counter to the theoretical/canonical operation of the system.

Must be the rebel in me.
Believe me I tried it with all factory settings at default.
At gig volume
And with a real deal Marshall head plugged into the same cabinet for A/B comparison.
But with cab sims off, the AFX2 Marshall like amps sounded as Danny described, " abrasive"

If anyone can give me a list of settings to check "debug", I will gladly do so.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to do it the theoretical/canonical way. Specifically because I saw Yek post about cab sims making a mess of the tone when using AF2 + matrix + real cabs. I really value the advice and vast experience Yek, Scott Peterson, Freman etc bring to this forum. So I pretty much keep their advice and observations in mind as I go about trying to do what I do with this box.
But like Danny, I kept thinking something was wrong with me, or my AF2 unit / FW? because I couldn't dial in the tone using the recommended methodology.
Regarding my tone...

Click on the video link in my signature, or check out our albums at http://kinggiant.bandcamp.com/
I'm not a ground breaking player by any means , and I'm not an audio engineer, but I think most peeps would agree I can dial in an acceptable Marshall like tone for rock/ metal.
So I'm pretty confident it's not my ears and that I'm not going for a swampy marshall wall of mush. ( although perhaps after listening, you may think my tone as recorded is just that...lol)
So far my hands on in the room experience tells me that I can get the Marshall tone that I am used to at gig volume by leaving cab sims on and adjusting global eq.
I wish I could get there using the other method
And I am am willing to try any suggested debugging.
It wasn't until Scott Peterson recently posted about experiencing an instance where leaving cab sims on did the trick for that particular requirement. That's when I said ok maybe I'm not weird.

 

[Danny Danzi]

Must be the rebel in me.
Believe me I tried it with all factory settings at default.
At gig volume
And with a real deal Marshall head plugged into the same cabinet for A/B comparison.
But with cab sims off, the AFX2 Marshall like amps sounded as Danny described, " abrasive"

If anyone can give me a list of settings to check "debug", I will gladly do so.

I spent quite a bit of time trying to do it the theoretical/canonical way. Specifically because I saw Yek post about cab sims making a mess of the tone when using AF2 + matrix + real cabs. I really value the advice and vast experience Yek, Scott Peterson, Freman etc bring to this forum. So I pretty much keep their advice and observations in mind as I go about trying to do what I do with this box.
But like Danny, I kept thinking something was wrong with me, or my AF2 unit / FW? because I couldn't dial in the tone using the recommended methodology.
Regarding my tone...

Click on the video link in my signature, or check out our albums at King Giant
I'm not a ground breaking player by any means , and I'm not an audio engineer, but I think most peeps would agree I can dial in an acceptable Marshall like tone for rock/ metal.
So I'm pretty confident it's not my ears and that I'm not going for a swampy marshall wall of mush. ( although perhaps after listening, you may think my tone as recorded is just that...lol)
So far my hands on in the room experience tells me that I can get the Marshall tone that I am used to at gig volume by leaving cab sims on and adjusting global eq.
I wish I could get there using the other method
And I am am willing to try any suggested debugging.
It wasn't until Scott Peterson recently posted about experiencing an instance where leaving cab sims on did the trick for that particular requirement. That's when I said ok maybe I'm not weird.

Based on what I heard from your band tempus, there's no way speaker/amp sim "off" is going to win you over. You like a warm tone with just a little sizzle presence to cut through. Without speaker sim/amp sim....you'd have to totally revamp your tones pulling out treble or low passing all over the place. Then again, this all depends on what cab you're using in my personal opinion. For me, regular Marshall cabs with say, 75's in them, have a 5k sizzle that I hate. This would force me to have to really lower the high end in my AFX if cab and power amp were turned off. Actually, I can run mine without the power amp sim...but cab sim, uggh, there's no way I could do it unless I totally removed the highs from the tone I use. I like a little sizzle to cut through, but to me, it's over-kill with the cab off no matter what amp I use.

At the moment, I've been using the 800 mod amp due to how it compliments my playing style and also gives me pinch harmonics unlike no other amp voicing in the AFX. I literally get that almost starved plate sort of sound...like early Eddie pinch harms that sound more like chirps than conventional pinch harms. I use that amp along with a cab impulse I created myself and am totally happy when driving it through my 25 watt Greenback cabs. The Greenbacks I use are warmer sounding than most Celestion cabs and also allow me to use less gain since they break up a bit faster and better than the other Celestion's I've tried. But whatever the case, I can't seem to turn that cab emulation off and make myself happy with the tone.

If it's any consolation (and I mean no disrespect to anyone) those that have shown their live tones via Youtube from this forum as well as other places, just about all have that raspy type tone that isn't to my personal liking. So I think it's safe to say that your ears and as well as mine, prefer less high end sizzle and abrasiveness in our tone. In turn, they probably wouldn't like the tones you or I get due to us being a bit warmer with less high end presence. I think the tones you came up with on your tunes fit the music perfectly for the low tuning thing you're doing. Enough sizzle to cut through, yet not abrasive to where it sounds like nails on a chalk-board loaded with sssssssssssssssssss in the high end.

I think you could get that tone with the cab sim turned off in your AFX, but you'd definitely need to lower your highs or bring in a filter and low pass down to about 6-7 k or so to remove that fizz type sound. I don't think our AFX are broken....I think our ears along with our cabs we use, prefer less sizzle. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion though like you, if it IS pilot error between you and me, I have no problems having the fine people of this forum educate me and point me in the right direction. I did a system restore back to factory while messing with the stock sounds and cab sim off. Then I tweak to taste....it's still too sizzly for my ears. LOL!

 

[tempus fugit]

Based on what I heard from your band tempus, there's no way speaker/amp sim "off" is going to win you over. You like a warm tone with just a little sizzle presence to cut through. Without speaker sim/amp sim....you'd have to totally revamp your tones pulling out treble or low passing all over the place. Then again, this all depends on what cab you're using in my personal opinion. For me, regular Marshall cabs with say, 75's in them, have a 5k sizzle that I hate. This would force me to have to really lower the high end in my AFX if cab and power amp were turned off. Actually, I can run mine without the power amp sim...but cab sim, uggh, there's no way I could do it unless I totally removed the highs from the tone I use. I like a little sizzle to cut through, but to me, it's over-kill with the cab off no matter what amp I use. At the moment, I've been using the 800 mod amp due to how it compliments my playing style and also gives me pinch harmonics unlike no other amp voicing in the AFX. I literally get that almost starved plate sort of sound...like early Eddie pinch harms that sound more like chirps than conventional pinch harms. I use that amp along with a cab impulse I created myself and am totally happy when driving it through my 25 watt Greenback cabs. The Greenbacks I use are warmer sounding than most Celestion cabs and also allow me to use less gain since they break up a bit faster and better than the other Celestion's I've tried. But whatever the case, I can't seem to turn that cab emulation off and make myself happy with the tone. If it's any consolation (and I mean no disrespect to anyone) those that have shown their live tones via Youtube from this forum as well as other places, just about all have that raspy type tone that isn't to my personal liking. So I think it's safe to say that your ears and as well as mine, prefer less high end sizzle and abrasiveness in our tone. In turn, they probably wouldn't like the tones you or I get due to us being a bit warmer with less high end presence. I think the tones you came up with on your tunes fit the music perfectly for the low tuning thing you're doing. Enough sizzle to cut through, yet not abrasive to where it sounds like nails on a chalk-board loaded with sssssssssssssssssss in the high end. I think you could get that tone with the cab sim turned off in your AFX, but you'd definitely need to lower your highs or bring in a filter and low pass down to about 6-7 k or so to remove that fizz type sound. I don't think our AFX are broken....I think our ears along with our cabs we use, prefer less sizzle. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion though like you, if it IS pilot error between you and me, I have no problems having the fine people of this forum educate me and point me in the right direction. I did a system restore back to factory while messing with the stock sounds and cab sim off. Then I tweak to taste....it's still too sizzly for my ears. LOL!

Thanks for the feedback Danny. Always helps to have another set of ears especially trained ones give their impressions of one's tone.
I have some cabs with v30s in them too. And I quite like them. But I found I was blowing speakers with wattage lower than 75, mainly when I was using the NON master vol heads. Not every week but enough to be an annoyance. Plus the stock cabs with 75s are what is common for provided back lines where I play. So I'm dialing in presets for those too.
have a show in London coming up in April that is providing an all Orange back line. So that should be interesting. Planning on using Fractal for that show as some goodly people from this forum have offered some assistance in that regard.

Cheers

 

[Danny Danzi]

Thanks for the feedback Danny. Always helps to have another set of ears especially trained ones give their impressions of one's tone.
I have some cabs with v30s in them too. And I quite like them. But I found I was blowing speakers with wattage lower than 75, mainly when I was using the NON master vol heads. Not every week but enough to be an annoyance. Plus the stock cabs with 75s are what is common for provided back lines where I play. So I'm dialing in presets for those too.
have a show in London coming up in April that is providing an all Orange back line. So that should be interesting. Planning on using Fractal for that show as some goodly people from this forum have offered some assistance in that regard.

Cheers

Haha no problem man. Ah see, the V 30's I never got along with. Quite a few of the classic rock guys used them for the backlines we used around here and man, I hated them. At least the cabs they had...they were really nasal sounding to me where my 25 watt greenbacks are so warm yet have a nice break-up in them. There shouldn't be much difference between them and the 30's, but for some reason, those 30's just sounded terrible.

London as in England? Haha that's great man! I play there too actually. Be careful when you bring your AFX....just about always, TSI is gonna pull you aside and check your bag or suitcase for a bomb...because that's what it looks like. LOL! I can't tell you how many times I got nabbed with my gold face 2101. I would say "honest, go get me an electric guitar and plug headphones in and I'll jam through the thing for you!!!" Hahaha! They always had to call some guy high up the ladder to decipher what the hell I had in there. The funniest is when I'd say "dude, seriously, do you really think I'm stupid enough to try to pack a fully loaded bomb in my bag that literally looks like a bomb? I mean c'mon, I might be an ugly dude with long hair, but I'm not a stupid dude with a prison wish! that would last for the rest of my life" and the TSI guys would literally start laughing too. I always try to have a sense of humor about it because I know they are doing their job. As long as I get to England or Germany or wherever the heck I'm supposed to be in time for my shows, it's all good brother. Good luck in London...kick some ass man!