FRFR that pushes air like a 4x12?

Of all people I'm glad you replied cause I was actually hoping to get your opinion of what FRFR to get in place of a 4x12 cab. And by "pushes air" in my simplistic view on it, is being able to feel the vibrations of the air being pushed from the speakers as I can with a real cab. I've been reading a lot of topics referring to "in the room feel" but as I'm not sure if what I feel is the same as it could be I'm not sure. But I'm looking to get a FRFR system and was thinking of the new active atomics, but my only worry is not of sound quality but of the missing feel of the vibrations. Another way of describing it is if I were to put ear plugs in and play I could still feel the notes I was playing, not that I could play without hearing it by no means nor do I have what they call a "Golden Ear" but it's just a two part thing for me. I like the tight percussive feeling of muted strings as well as being able to feel the vibrations of a singing vibrato. If you could give me any recommendations for a system like that it would be greatly appreciated.
 
There's no replacement for displacement. I think Dweezil has it right, he's using 4 Atomic FR Reactors All bet that rig will make your bell bottoms move.
 
You've answered your own question with the OP.

Four 1x12 powered monitors will push the same amount of air as a 412.

If you want to push air, then PUSH the air.
 
Jay knows better than me, well, than anyone, but I seem to remember reading that a guitar 12" really doesn't have much travel, where modern 12" speakers can easily travel way further causing much more air movement per piece. Now for the exact numbers, I have no idea. But it comes down to... try an find out. Get an FRFR that will handle lots of RMS and turn it up. I read the K12 carries a 1000 Watts in her rear end.
 
TheOtherDave said:
Looking at it spelled out like this, I'm actually quite surprised. I had no idea tweeters and a crossover were that expensive.
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That is just silly. The woofers used in good quality FRFR monitors cost several times as much to manufacture as guitar speakers, and they can produce substantially more low-frequency output as well.
 
Jay Mitchell said:
TheOtherDave said:
Looking at it spelled out like this, I'm actually quite surprised. I had no idea tweeters and a crossover were that expensive.
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That is just silly. The woofers used in good quality FRFR monitors cost several times as much to manufacture as guitar speakers, and they can produce substantially more low-frequency output as well.
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That last bit was sarcastic, but since you brought it up...

I can't speak to the cost what's in the particular 4x12 cab I linked to (because it's four "heavy-duty BUGERA speakers", which nobody sells by themselves), but a Celestion Seventy 80 (the cheapest Celestion speaker I'd heard of that Guitar Center sells) is $79 vs $188 for the woofer that's in that JBL box -- about 2.4x the cost. Of course, tweeters and crossovers aren't free, so you've got those additional hard costs. I'm not sure what the R&D costs on a good FRFR box are, nor how they compare to what would be spent designing a 4x12 cab.



Anyway, my point is that four FRFR monitors will be waaay more expensive than one 4x12 guitar cab. That's why I'm following this thread so closely. I really want to know how much this thing ends up costing.
 
TheOtherDave said:
Anyway, my point is that four FRFR monitors will be waaay more expensive than one 4x12 guitar cab.
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And they will put out waaaay more volume. You don't need four. A well-designed FRFR monitor with a single woofer and sufficient power driving it can easily make as much or more SPL - at any frequency - as a 4x12 guitar cab. Such a speaker will almost certainly cost more than a 4x12, and rightfully so. No guitar cab has anything resembling real R&D behind it. It will also do a lot more than any 4x12 can do (which may or may not matter for your use). Any decent carpenter can build a 4x12 box and put speakers in it.
 
I mean this is all silly frankly.

Questions like this make me question the actual intent and/or experience of the OP.

To the OP, have you ever stood in front of a 100 watt Marshall Full Stack at full volume?

I have. It's an incredible thing and you MOVE air and sound. You can get it so loud and powerful that not only do your pant legs flap, but you can get vertigo in a closed space.

To MOVE air, which is what the OP is talking about, you need to have speakers PUSH air. If you have four 12" speakers in a 412, then the same thing would push air with a powered monitor. That's all I was saying.

You would not a) want to do this; b) need to do this. But I answered the question honestly.

Most powered PA speakers/monitors use speakers that are MUCH different than guitar cab speakers by design, function and application. You are NOT comparing apples to apples in any way comparing guitar cab speakers to ANY sort of full range system.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Four 1x12 powered monitors will push the same amount of air as a 412.
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This is incorrect. The volume of air moved in a given amount of time (volume velocity, which is directly proportional to SPL) depends on two speaker parameters: the total surface area of the radiator(s), and the total displacement from rest that the radiating surface can undergo.

The maximum linear displacement of most guitar speakers is on the order of a few thousandths of an inch, whereas the linear displacement of a proper woofer can be greater than that by a factor of 10 or more. As a conservative example, a single cone transducer with a maximum linear displacement of 5mm (~.20", not "long travel" any stretch)) can produce 14dB more output than a transducer of the same size with a maximum linear displacement of 1mm (~.040", which is more linear travel than many guitar transducers are capable of), assuming that both transducers are within their thermal limits. The latter assumption is being incredibly generous to the guitar transducer, as it will reach its thermal limit at much lower power levels than any decent woofer. That's more output than four of the short-travel transducers can produce operating together in a single cab.

If you want to push air, then PUSH the air.
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There's more than one way to accomplish that, as I've pointed out. Greater surface area does not, by itself, translate to "pushing more air."
 
FYI as has been said, guitar speakers and fr speakers are so totally different, its like apples and driveshafts.
One key element you should look into is xmax on a speaker. this will give you an idea of the air thats being pushed. i can build an 8" box that will push more air than 2 12's .

if you guys are interested in reading, go to billfitzmaurices site. the guy has spent his whole life studying sound. ive learned a lot from him. it takes years to understand. the two setups, frfr vs a celestion loaded cab is not even a fair comparison. for example : a vintage 30 will handle approx. 7 watts at 65 hz, where an evm12l will handle 185.
there are so many factors. did you also know that out of 100 watts of power only approx 7 watts is sound. the rest is lost as heat! now this varies somewhat depending on efficiency and frequency being replicated.
 
Oh that damn Jay, he's always right. I hate that guy. (kidding!) ;) :D

He is right. My point is this: pushing air is overrated. Fun? Sure. Stupid? Yes. You could go deaf. It is not useful in any manner other than sheer physical power; which is about as impressive to anyone as pushing the gas pedal on a big ole' V8. It's stupid fun, but really in the scheme of things, not useful to anyone but the guitarist's ego (or the car owner's ego).

Good sound and good tone should matter more than pushing air... that's what I was hinting at, though not too effectively.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Oh that damn Jay, he's always right. I hate that guy. (kidding!) ;) :D

He is right. My point is this: pushing air is overrated. Fun? Sure. Stupid? Yes. You could go deaf. It is not useful in any manner other than sheer physical power; which is about as impressive to anyone as pushing the gas pedal on a big ole' V8. It's stupid fun, but really in the scheme of things, not useful to anyone but the guitarist's ego (or the car owner's ego).

Good sound and good tone should matter more than pushing air... that's what I was hinting at, though not too effectively.
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Thanks for all the replies but I'm not looking to go deaf or feed an ego as that's not me. I just like the feeling of playing on a 4x12 and if a FRFR system can't get close to the results then I need to look down a different route. The thing is I've never played through a FRFR system so that's why I'm on here trying to get advice from you guys, not to get bashed for what " I " like. What's great for one person is crap to another, but I'm just looking to get what I like.
 
tune down a whole step! youll push more air! in all seriousness, i think you need a better understanding of what you call "pushing air" a soundwave has a given wavelength at a given frequency. i can stick a 300 watt evm in a thiele and make you cry! literally! the ev is capable of handling that wattage through most of its bandwidth. you have to have 4 v30s to even come close. You need a speaker capable of delivering those "chest pounding" frequencies at volume if thats what you want. there are several ways to achieve this . there are three categories: price, size, efficiency. pick two and forget about the third. and read bill fitzmaurices forums. youll learn more than you ever wanted to know about sound.
 
Boogafunk said:
tune down a whole step! youll push more air! in all seriousness, i think you need a better understanding of what you call "pushing air" a soundwave has a given wavelength at a given frequency. i can stick a 300 watt evm in a thiele and make you cry! literally! the ev is capable of handling that wattage through most of its bandwidth. you have to have 4 v30s to even come close. You need a speaker capable of delivering those "chest pounding" frequencies at volume if thats what you want. there are several ways to achieve this . there are three categories: price, size, efficiency. pick two and forget about the third. and read bill fitzmaurices forums. youll learn more than you ever wanted to know about sound.
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Thanks, and I'm looking to stay around 3k or under for an active speakers or amp and speakers for a good sounding system if that's possible.
 
Boogafunk said:
if you guys are interested in reading, go to billfitzmaurices site. the guy has spent his whole life studying sound.
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It has been rumored that there are members here who have done likewise. :cool:
 
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