FRFR as a backline, does stereo setup make sense

K

kingston

Member
Hi

Looking to getting a backline set up, probably a FR12/FR10, CLR, DXR10 or the like.

My first idea was to do a stereo setup, but I got to wonder how far a part the speaker should be placed to have a nice stereo effect.
For rehearsels and most gigs, the speakers would be placed 1-1.5 mtr apart.

My rig is axefx stereo out 1 to FOH, and output 2 to backline and stage monitors (2xwedge for guitar and band mix).

Did any of you have any experience with this matter.
 
For my live setup, I have stereo FRFR setup, with a pair of Euphonic Audio VL110 cabinets, sitting behind me on their flight cases. See the picture below. They are about four inches apart. From my position at my pedalboard, I am a good 15 feet away from them. I get a great stereo image from my rig, even at that distance with little cabinet separation. None of my patches have radical Left / Right panning. i notice the stereo effect the most on the rotary effect, and on the panning trem effect. At some shows, I put my Xitone 1x12 in front of me, as a mono stage fill. My sends to FOH are stereo.

For what it's worth, I'm actually not very loud onstage, and prefer to maintain a comfortable listening level for the band. One of my rules is "you should be able to have a normal speaking-level conversation with another band member onstage". So I prefer to have more coverage at a moderate volume level. The sense of spatialization that comes from the stereo cabs helps me achieve smoother coverage on stage.
 

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I'm not in the stereo camp.. if you want to use a stereo rig for your own listening pleasure on stage (like @Sleestak) go for it... but what YOU hear does not translate well for the audience - or at a minimum ONLY for those in front of you.
Most FOH folks will take a direct stereo feed off the Axe or slap a mic on one of the cabs.
Many stereo effects to do not translate well to the audience thru the PA.
 
s0c9 said:
I'm not in the stereo camp.. if you want to use a stereo rig for your own listening pleasure on stage (like @Sleestak) go for it... but what YOU hear does not translate well for the audience - or at a minimum ONLY for those in front of you.
Most FOH folks will take a direct stereo feed off the Axe or slap a mic on one of the cabs.
Many stereo effects to do not translate well to the audience thru the PA.
Click to expand...
For most of our shows, the audience - even those in front me - can't hear my speakers. The PA and center downfills are stereo, so what they're hearing is the house feed. Generally, I'm feeding FOH both of my channels as direct XLR feeds. At some venues, the PA is mono, so I just send a single feed, which is also fine. I have an alternate bank of presets that has much less panning, and that works for those settings.

And you're right... I've had a few FOH operators stick a mic in front of one of my cabs. I inform them they're 3 way cabinets, and that I can give them a direct feed if that's easier. There are sound operators who have a strong opinion on modelers, and who haven't had good experiences with direct feeds. I just ask them to try it, and if we finish soundcheck and they're not happy with my signal, we can try a mic instead. I have never had to resort to a mic, although I did once have to "fool" the FOH by leaving the mic / stand in front of my cab, but before soundcheck I removed the cable and plugged in directly. He didn't notice until after the show that I'd done that, and once he finished swearing about it, he did admit the direct feed sounded really good :)
 
Sleestak said:
For most of our shows, the audience - even those in front me - can't hear my speakers. The PA and center downfills are stereo, so what they're hearing is the house feed. Generally, I'm feeding FOH both of my channels as direct XLR feeds. At some venues, the PA is mono, so I just send a single feed, which is also fine. I have an alternate bank of presets that has much less panning, and that works for those settings.

And you're right... I've had a few FOH operators stick a mic in front of one of my cabs. I inform them they're 3 way cabinets, and that I can give them a direct feed if that's easier. There are sound operators who have a strong opinion on modelers, and who haven't had good experiences with direct feeds. I just ask them to try it, and if we finish soundcheck and they're not happy with my signal, we can try a mic instead. I have never had to resort to a mic, although I did once have to "fool" the FOH by leaving the mic / stand in front of my cab, but before soundcheck I removed the cable and plugged in directly. He didn't notice until after the show that I'd done that, and once he finished swearing about it, he did admit the direct feed sounded really good :)
Click to expand...
I did that to the guys up at Tony V's (in Everett). They were quite livid about it.
 
Sleestak said:
For most of our shows, the audience - even those in front me - can't hear my speakers. The PA and center downfills are stereo, so what they're hearing is the house feed. Generally, I'm feeding FOH both of my channels as direct XLR feeds. At some venues, the PA is mono, so I just send a single feed, which is also fine. I have an alternate bank of presets that has much less panning, and that works for those settings.

And you're right... I've had a few FOH operators stick a mic in front of one of my cabs. I inform them they're 3 way cabinets, and that I can give them a direct feed if that's easier. There are sound operators who have a strong opinion on modelers, and who haven't had good experiences with direct feeds. I just ask them to try it, and if we finish soundcheck and they're not happy with my signal, we can try a mic instead. I have never had to resort to a mic, although I did once have to "fool" the FOH by leaving the mic / stand in front of my cab, but before soundcheck I removed the cable and plugged in directly. He didn't notice until after the show that I'd done that, and once he finished swearing about it, he did admit the direct feed sounded really good :)
Click to expand...
LOL - been there, done that.
When I run FOH, I try to be as accommodating as possible - within the system limits.. I'll ALWAYS take a stereo feed from a modeler, but may not be able to do anything more than center pan (due to PA limitations).. I'll mic a tube amp tho' :)
 
selta said:
I did that to the guys up at Tony V's (in Everett). They were quite livid about it.
Click to expand...
Ha! It happens to me occasionally, usually accompanied by the FOH rant about "all those damned computerized gizmos showing up on my stage... why when I was a kid AMPS HAD TUBES and got HOT and effect pedals HAD BATTERIES and were connected by those FUNNY CURLY PATCH CORDS and cars didn't have those DAMNED CATALYTIC CONVERTERS and still RAN ON REGULAR DAMNED GAS".

I try to play nice with everybody, so I make the best of it. There isn't a practical way for most venues to mic my 3 way cabs, but if they were really insistent on putting a mic on my rig, I'd put the Euphonic cabs back in the equipment truck and just use the Xitone. It's FRFR, but it has one driver, so it would preserve the soundman's dignity by allowing them prove their point. And it would still sound great. Win-win!
 
Sleestak said:
Definitely. I carried my own E609 as an amp mic when I still used my Lonestar. I assert that the microphone, and the air in front of the amp, are part of the amp's voice.
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That's what my guys use on theirs right now... I play bass in current band. I go direct.
 
s0c9 said:
That's what my guys use on theirs right now... I play bass in current band. I go direct.
Click to expand...
I find the E609 to be a really fantastic amp mic. In most settings, you can just swap out an SM57 for an E609 without changing anything on the channel EQ, and get a much better sound. There are more esoteric / expensive amp mics, but the E609 is my all-purpose favorite.
 
Stereo setups are great and always improve my personal happiness by 100%. Yes, it's true that obtaining a perfect stereo effect in a club is nearly impossible but so what. There are quite literally hundreds of factors like refraction, crowd size, temperature, Windows/mirrors, time of year, etc That play a part in sound development. Even if the soundman splits your signal 100% left and 100% right you STILL are going to get a reasonable tone if the room is set up correctly. The triangle myth is lost on me completely.
I personally have two 'stereo' setups I use!
1) A 212 Xitone cab running L&R, zero separation. This gets me that warbley phaser, Leslie type tones, and dual amp sweetness I enjoy!
2) My second setup has that same XiTone with and egnater 212 cab on top! Right signal goes to Xitone and the left goes to the Egnater! This "stacked stereo" setup gives me a great stage presence, stage sound, and that uni-directional tone while still having a stereo type thickness and a super cool vertical stereo treatment of my modulation effects.

I guess I'm agreeing that true stereo is kind of impossible thru the mains but running a LeftRight rig reeeeeeally sounds killer. A soundman worth a damn will help you push this sound through his desk as best he can. It all starts with your personal stage sound and overall happiness, and if you keep your stage levels at a reasonable volume there's no reason why you should get any grief from the sound man. Truth is, he's gonna do what're the f*** he wants to anyway.
 
I'm running direct to FOH in stereo from Out 1 and from Out 2 to two XiTone 1x12's in stereo for my backline. One behind me and the other on the other side of the stage behind my bass player. I'm extremely happy with this setup.
 
s0c9 said:
I'm not in the stereo camp.. if you want to use a stereo rig for your own listening pleasure on stage (like @Sleestak) go for it... but what YOU hear does not translate well for the audience - or at a minimum ONLY for those in front of you.
Most FOH folks will take a direct stereo feed off the Axe or slap a mic on one of the cabs.
Many stereo effects to do not translate well to the audience thru the PA.
Click to expand...

I agree.
Other things to consider at least for me, I will never play a stereo rig if there is another guitar player in the band, can be a real sonic mess for the audience. And if that other guitar player is stereo also pretty much a done deal it will be a bit of a mess.

Like

John
 
6L6C said:
s0c9 said:
I'm not in the stereo camp.. if you want to use a stereo rig for your own listening pleasure on stage (like @Sleestak) go for it... but what YOU hear does not translate well for the audience - or at a minimum ONLY for those in front of you.
Most FOH folks will take a direct stereo feed off the Axe or slap a mic on one of the cabs.
Many stereo effects to do not translate well to the audience thru the PA.
Click to expand...
I agree.
Other things to consider at least for me, I will never play a stereo rig if there is another guitar player in the band, can be a real sonic mess for the audience. And if that other guitar player is stereo also pretty much a done deal it will be a bit of a mess.
Click to expand...
Yep that makes sense

I play in a 1 guitar band and I've always preferred to run stereo just for my own enjoyment as a stereo pitch effect does sound more pleasing to the ear. I'm not panned too wide on FOH - usually at 9 o'clock 3 o'clock ...... the keyboards go wider.
 
Honestly, to me i dont think it matters. I run everything mono. Like some have stated before, none of your stereo effects will really translate to FOH effectively, so its just gonna make for a neat sound for yourself more or less. I choose to carry one less cab, and remind myself that 90% of the audience dont exactly care.
 
If you stand right in front of it and shoe gaze maybe.. but for the most part i'd say no, especially with frfr not being as beamy as a cabinet, dispersion is greater so the stereo field would collapse. I use ears, so I have my k12 setup just to provide some filler.
 
Sleestak said:
For most of our shows, the audience - even those in front me - can't hear my speakers. The PA and center downfills are stereo, so what they're hearing is the house feed. Generally, I'm feeding FOH both of my channels as direct XLR feeds. At some venues, the PA is mono, so I just send a single feed, which is also fine. I have an alternate bank of presets that has much less panning, and that works for those settings.

And you're right... I've had a few FOH operators stick a mic in front of one of my cabs. I inform them they're 3 way cabinets, and that I can give them a direct feed if that's easier. There are sound operators who have a strong opinion on modelers, and who haven't had good experiences with direct feeds. I just ask them to try it, and if we finish soundcheck and they're not happy with my signal, we can try a mic instead. I have never had to resort to a mic, although I did once have to "fool" the FOH by leaving the mic / stand in front of my cab, but before soundcheck I removed the cable and plugged in directly. He didn't notice until after the show that I'd done that, and once he finished swearing about it, he did admit the direct feed sounded really good :)
Click to expand...


Great, I'll try that trick next time a sound man insists on a mic.
 
Sleestak said:
There are sound operators who have a strong opinion on modelers, and who haven't had good experiences with direct feeds. I just ask them to try it, and if we finish soundcheck and they're not happy with my signal, we can try a mic instead. I have never had to resort to a mic, although I did once have to "fool" the FOH by leaving the mic / stand in front of my cab, but before soundcheck I removed the cable and plugged in directly. He didn't notice until after the show that I'd done that, and once he finished swearing about it, he did admit the direct feed sounded really good :)
Click to expand...

Ha!, isn't It fun to drag them kicking and complaining into the next century!
 
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