FM3 vs FM9 - sound differences

[DLC86]

That's interesting. As I understand it, these new 32 bit float mics/interfaces do the opposite of that. Instead of adding a second high gain ADC to improve resolution, they add a second low gain ADC to be used to capture audio that clips the first ADC. You still have spl and voltage limits of the analog components, but between the two ADC's and the float representation of the digital audio, it should be less prone to clipping. That makes these devices popular for field recording. I'm sure there's some exaggeration going on, but I don't think it's all marketing BS.

That's more or less how I understand that as well, but I don't get why you say it's the opposite of what Cliff said, it's actually the same thing as the "Dual native ISO" in digital camera he mentions. The only difference is that in cameras the ISO is chosen before taking the photo, with these interfaces instead the output of both converters is conveyed into a single floating point file.

 

[DLC86]

I was referring to the audio application he mentioned where it adds a few bits of resolution to reduce the noise floor with an integer representation, not the HDR application. You're right, 32 bit float in an interface is analogous to HDR.

Again, I'm not saying 32 bit float in an interface is a panacea. I'm just humbly disagreeing with the implication that it is merely a marketing ploy.

I didn't mention HDR (which is just 10-bit video instead of 8-bit, I think), but dual native ISO, which is a different thing, i.e. two different converters working at two different input levels, just as in these audio interfaces.

Saying 32 bit float is just misleading, cuz one would think it would dramatically increase the dynamic range when all it does is giving you just a bit more headroom on an otherwise clipped recording. Look at the Zoom UAC-232 specs, they don't report the dynamic range but mic input max level is +6 dBu and EIN is -127 dBu... 133 dB don't even match the dynamic range of a 24 bit file!

This stuff can be useful only if you often find yourself in scenarios where you can't know correct recording levels in advance and can't adjust them on the fly, but in a studio it's pretty much useless (unless you're so lazy or careless to not set the correct gain in advance)

 

[FractalAudio]

That's interesting. As I understand it, these new 32 bit float mics/interfaces do the opposite of that. Instead of adding a second high gain ADC to improve resolution, they add a second low gain ADC to be used to capture audio that clips the first ADC. You still have spl and voltage limits of the analog components, but between the two ADC's and the float representation of the digital audio, it should be less prone to clipping. That makes these devices popular for field recording. I'm sure there's some exaggeration going on, but I don't think it's all marketing BS.

That's the same exact thing. You switch between low gain and high gain conversion based on the input amplitude.

Floating point doesn't prevent clipping. Clipping occurs when the analog signal exceeds the full-scale voltage of the A/D.

I never said floating point is marketing BS. I've said that "32-bit converter ICs" are BS, and they are because they only output about 20 usable bits.

You're confusing A/D converter ICs with products that use A/D converter ICs. When you use multiple A/D converters in a dual-gain configuration you need a DSP or microprocessor or FPGA to process the two converters and create a single digital data stream. You typically output floating point to take full advantage of the increase in dynamic range. The output of the A/D converters themselves only needs to be 24-bit fixed point.

We use dual-gain conversion in our products and the output of the conversion processing is 32-bit floating point. We are doing the exact same thing as these mic/interfaces you are talking about for the same exact reasons those products do it.

 

[Doogz]

I have the FM3T, with an external 2 button footswitch that I use as a "table of contents" changer, and a "view change" switch.

Check it out here:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...ustom-layouts-for-2-button-footswitch.206487/

I can get to any Scene within a couple of short presses of the View Change, and I have easy navigation to/through Presets/FX/Control/Songs and Sets.

Also, I've set up most of my footswitch definitions, so that if the two button footswitch fails, I can still get to everything. A long press of the left footswitch scrolls the view left, and a long press of the right scrolls right. The centre switch is the "Home" button, so a long press of that gets me back to the Table of Contents (the Master Layout Menu - MLM).

Such a versatile lil unit

 

[GlennO]

That's the same exact thing. You switch between low gain and high gain conversion based on the input amplitude.

Floating point doesn't prevent clipping. Clipping occurs when the analog signal exceeds the full-scale voltage of the A/D.

I never said floating point is marketing BS. I've said that "32-bit converter ICs" are BS, and they are because they only output about 20 usable bits.

You're confusing A/D converter ICs with products that use A/D converter ICs. When you use multiple A/D converters in a dual-gain configuration you need a DSP or microprocessor or FPGA to process the two converters and create a single digital data stream. You typically output floating point to take full advantage of the increase in dynamic range. The output of the A/D converters themselves only needs to be 24-bit fixed point.

Well, yes, you still have to contend with the spl and voltage limits of the analog components, but isn't the max input level of a typical 32 bit float audio interface greater than on a conventional audio interface in order to take advantage of that format? For example, Sounddevices shows 28dBu in their specs.

More to the point, I assumed MayPRS was referring to the digital output bit depth of the Axe-FX, since that's the bit depth that one would normally cite when discussing an audio interface. That question comes up from time to time since the bit depth isn't listed in the manual.

We use dual-gain conversion in our products and the output of the conversion processing is 32-bit floating point. We are doing the exact same thing as these mic/interfaces you are talking about for the same exact reasons those products do it.

Just curious: is this dual-gain input conversion common in audio interfaces? Or is the Axe-FX unusual in this regard? I've never seen any mention of it before except in 32 bit float audio interfaces.

 

[DLC86]

but isn't the max input level of a typical 32 bit float audio interface greater than on a conventional audio interface in order to take advantage of that format? For example, Sounddevices shows 28dBu in their specs.

I can make a 16 bit audio interface audio interface have a max input level of +100 dBu: just put an attenuator in front.

Those two converters in "32-bit fp" interfaces are probably identical and what changes is the analog level being sent to them.

 

[MayPRS]

I've been studying the manual and indeed the switching system must be the most powerful I've ever seen.

To be brutally honest - at this point I really don't know how to proceed. I need a great sounding unit and I'm sure the FM3 delivers but, throughout my life, I always had the motto: "if you are going to spend money, then spend on something you really want, don't settle or don't buy"...

The FM9 cons are size, weight and of course price which is, for me, A LOT... I know these are first world problems but we are all here right?

 

[srooijens]

Sounddevices shows 28dBu in their specs.

+28dBu is not at all unusual as peak level for devices with a 4dBu nominal level.

 

[Dave Merrill]

I've been studying the manual and indeed the switching system must be the most powerful I've ever seen.

To be brutally honest - at this point I really don't know how to proceed. I need a great sounding unit and I'm sure the FM3 delivers but, throughout my life, I always had the motto: "if you are going to spend money, then spend on something you really want, don't settle or don't buy"...

The FM9 cons are size, weight and of course price which is, for me, A LOT... I know these are first world problems but we are all here right?

If you just don't have the money for a larger unit, your decision is made for you. If you're taking the subway every day, or carrying your rig up 5 flights of stairs, small and light is your priority.

Other than those situations, like a lot of things, if you have more cpu and more switches, you'll use them, and they'll make life better.

 

[FractalAudio]

Well, yes, you still have to contend with the spl and voltage limits of the analog components, but isn't the max input level of a typical 32 bit float audio interface greater than on a conventional audio interface in order to take advantage of that format?

No. The max input level is set by the full-scale voltage of the A/D converters and the analog input gain (which could be less than 0 dB, if desired). As stated previously you can make the max level 100 dB by setting the input gain to, say, -80 dB.

 

[MayPRS]

If you just don't have the money for a larger unit, your decision is made for you. If you're taking the subway every day, or carrying your rig up 5 flights of stairs, small and light is your priority.

Other than those situations, like a lot of things, if you have more cpu and more switches, you'll use them, and they'll make life better.

Neither actually. I have a car and have an elevator from garage to apartment direct.

Its the "take to the house, now car, then house again", not to mention stage loading/unloading. As of now (AC30 + G-System) is about 35 Kg.

With the FM9 is around 6... FM3 even lighter, smaller and cheaper.

I "want" the FM9, I need to justify the amount extra and if its really really needed.

 

[stephanfm3]

buy the fm9. you deserve it!

 

[feegs]

Its depends on your requirements. I had the FM3 but ran it with a FC6 pedal. i then bought an FM9 due to 'my' need for more switches and running Stereo Amps, the FM3 you can't have 2 amps. I also found that i was often just hitting the DSP limit, sure a little of this was being a bit lazy in patch setup but some blocks are pretty heavy in DSP requirements. (but adding the looper would sometimes through it over the edge and i got sick of tweaking. The FM9 gives you some extra room for this and the layout with switches and just lets you get on with it. But as i sing in a band the FM9 is easier to control through scene setup, less jumping around having to think about stuff when id rather just be playing. Playing this through my Blue Amp MIMIC 2x12 sounds huge!.

 

[unix-guy]

Its depends on your requirements. I had the FM3 but ran it with a FC6 pedal. i then bought an FM9 due to 'my' need for more switches and running Stereo Amps, the FM3 you can't have 2 amps. I also found that i was often just hitting the DSP limit, sure a little of this was being a bit lazy in patch setup but some blocks are pretty heavy in DSP requirements. (but adding the looper would sometimes through it over the edge and i got sick of tweaking. The FM9 gives you some extra room for this and the layout with switches and just lets you get on with it. But as i sing in a band the FM9 is easier to control through scene setup, less jumping around having to think about stuff when id rather just be playing. Playing this through my Blue Amp MIMIC 2x12 sounds huge!.

But those are all functional things and not the sound

 

[MayPRS]

So... about to do it, just a couple of questions:

• How does it sound thru headphones? The QC sounded terrible, the TMP sounded nice, Helix sounded decent
• My starting scenario might be connecting to FOH and let them feed a wedge for stage volume/feedback plus (maybe) IEM. Later I would probably had a power amp + guitar cab for stage, but I would like to start this way. Would it be fine or a guitar cab is "mandatory" for a nice experience?
• My main sound would be AC30 at full + a external TB. Would the FM3/FM9 input handle the external TB OK?

Finally, I have zero experience on Fractal units. I read several posts where post reported the sound was boomy, lots of low end upon receiving it, I want to avoid that experience - when I buy something I really want to keep and get the most of it. Pointers for a nice "first experience"? I know it takes time to get "my sound" but if I can get in the ballpark of a great sounding unit on the first one/two weeks it would be nice. Hate to return something!

Many thanks.

 

[WhiteRoom]

So... about to do it, just a couple of questions:

• How does it sound thru headphones? The QC sounded terrible, the TMP sounded nice, Helix sounded decent
• My starting scenario might be connecting to FOH and let them feed a wedge for stage volume/feedback plus (maybe) IEM. Later I would probably had a power amp + guitar cab for stage, but I would like to start this way. Would it be fine or a guitar cab is "mandatory" for a nice experience?
• My main sound would be AC30 at full + a external TB. Would the FM3/FM9 input handle the external TB OK?

Finally, I have zero experience on Fractal units. I read several posts where post reported the sound was boomy, lots of low end upon receiving it, I want to avoid that experience - when I buy something I really want to keep and get the most of it. Pointers for a nice "first experience"? I know it takes time to get "my sound" but if I can get in the ballpark of a great sounding unit on the first one/two weeks it would be nice. Hate to return something!

Many thanks.

I've owned all those units and others at one time or another (still have an HX Stomp), and can honestly say the FM9 sounds the best through headphones, with the important caveat that Presets will always need to be tweaked according to whatever you are using as an output. If you use a power amp and cab, there is a not insignificant difference in the playing/listening experience when compared to playing through an FRFR, or headphones - it would be very strange imo if there wasn't a difference.

With regards to the "boomy" sound, and not wanting to sound overly critical about a post I haven't personally read, anyone who says that the Fractal units are boomy as if it's some inherent quality of the device, must be a bit ill informed about how they function. The degree of overall control you have over the sound they produce is probably unmatched by any other device - the FM9 gives you a huge amount of control over all aspects of the amp and effects parameters and signal chain. You can create a Preset that is literally just an amp block, no cab, no IR etc. and send it out through a transparent power amp and into an appropriate cab and it will sound so close to the real world amp that any differences are so insignificant as to be irrelevant imo. Equally you can create a Preset for headphones (or FRFR) that sounds nearly identical to the final "mixed" result of a classic tone from just about any era of guitar music - maybe not an early baroque guitar though https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque_guitar

Like I said I've owned most of the mainstream devices that are available, just because, and imo the FM9 sounds the best. There is a learning curve though because it's got a LOT of depth, and that is definitely a good thing

 

[dariosicily]

So... about to do it, just a couple of questions:

• How does it sound thru headphones? The QC sounded terrible, the TMP sounded nice, Helix sounded decent
• My starting scenario might be connecting to FOH and let them feed a wedge for stage volume/feedback plus (maybe) IEM. Later I would probably had a power amp + guitar cab for stage, but I would like to start this way. Would it be fine or a guitar cab is "mandatory" for a nice experience?
• My main sound would be AC30 at full + a external TB. Would the FM3/FM9 input handle the external TB OK?

Finally, I have zero experience on Fractal units. I read several posts where post reported the sound was boomy, lots of low end upon receiving it, I want to avoid that experience - when I buy something I really want to keep and get the most of it. Pointers for a nice "first experience"? I know it takes time to get "my sound" but if I can get in the ballpark of a great sounding unit on the first one/two weeks it would be nice. Hate to return something!

Many thanks.

Man, buy yourself the FM9, you will never regret.

I sold the FM3 and bought the 9... weight difference is not that much at the end of the day.

• headphones never fit a guitar sound to me...
• I use a good quality PA wedge and it sounds fantastic, you'll probably won't need IEM (unless requested by your band).
• I used to place a Tube screamer in front of my AX8 till I realized it was totally unnecessary...

Having a chance to switch between scenes (scenes view) and then get deeper into a scene while you're playing finding yourself in front of a "pedalboard" (effects view) is a huge difference to me.

I mean I did something similar with the FM3 but...

I gig a lot, I couldn't be happier

 

[JAD]

I was up against the FM3 vs FM9 question a few months ago and I went with the FM9 for two reasons: more DSP and more built in switches. Sure you can get an FC6 and end up with the same number of switches, but then you still have the DSP and feature limitations of the FM3. The extra cost was worth it for me, and I picked up a case with backpack straps for hauling that works great.

 

[Dave Merrill]

I was up against the FM3 vs FM9 question a few months ago and I went with the FM9 for two reasons: more DSP and more built in switches. Sure you can get an FC6 and end up with the same number of switches, but then you still have the DSP and feature limitations of the FM3. The extra cost was worth it for me, and I picked up a case with backpack straps for hauling that works great.

Which case?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

• How does it sound thru headphones? The QC sounded terrible, the TMP sounded nice, Helix sounded decent

Physics affect the sound of an electric guitar through headphones, any headphones.

We rely on the acoustic feedback loop of the guitar -> amp -> speakers -> guitar because it boosts the mids which pushes the amp's gain harder which hits the speakers, on and on. Headphones break that so the guitar and amp sounds are affected. There are ways to partially simulate that but nothing replaces it.

I use headphones a lot because we keep a quiet house. I mostly use the Ollo Audio S5X headphones, which have an almost flat response, they're close enough that I don't bother trying to EQ them closer to flat and I trust that what I hear is what the modeler will put out on stage, minus the missing acoustic feedback and the way that speaker location affects the sound. I adjust for those things before and during sound check, typically reducing the gain and reverb and rolling back the lows.