FM3 Mac Audio Monitoring Latency

yeky83 said:
Weird how the FM3's IN latency goes up when you use the FM3's OUT with it, 2.67ms -> 5.92ms.
In any case, I wouldn't trust reported latency. I'd measure it with something like RTL Utility to see what the actual latency is.

For monitoring direct, can't you do that with the FM3 just as with Axe-Fx II or III? Plug speakers/headphones into the output, turn off DAW track monitoring?
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It is interesting...Maybe it has to increase the FM3's buffer rate to compensate for the added stress of using it as an OUT as well (not very technical description, I know...).

I just ordered a headphone adapter to give it a shot. That seems to be my biggest issue (using the Mac's headphone out). I'm just trying to think how I would monitor via Ableton and mute the direct signal from the FM3 if I wanted to use plugins (as I do for certain tracks).
 
As many have stated above, your previous experience has most likely been that you were using input monitoring, direct monitoring or had your track muted during the record process. Buffer size within a DAW can compensate for this but will overload the system when you start mixing multiple tracks. Most DAWs will default to a buffer size of around 256/512ms. You can lower this (helpful when using software plugins for tracking). If you are running through something like the FM3, Axe, Helix, then you are using that as the monitoring device. The echo you hear is whats coming back to you after the CPU has processed it. Use the FM3, arm the track for record, mute the input and record. When you go to play back the track, unmute it. You need to be monitoring the unit directly (Input monitoring, Direct Monitoring, etc) and that's what you are doing on the other units in the past whether you believe it or not. They ALL introduce latency if you are trying to monitoring what the computer is processing.

All that said, there is an open case with Fractal concerning a different type of latency, and this is the delay AFTER recording where the track is being printed/recorded several (more than normal) Ms behind. The issue you speak of is not an issue that they will address. I know it's frustrating but just try what I said to try. Record ARM, Mute track, then record (Make sure you have your monitors plugged into the FM3 (Out 1 and 2) so you are hearing the unit on its own (Direct Monitoring)
 
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jholt said:
It is interesting...Maybe it has to increase the FM3's buffer rate to compensate for the added stress of using it as an OUT as well (not very technical description, I know...).

I just ordered a headphone adapter to give it a shot. That seems to be my biggest issue (using the Mac's headphone out). I'm just trying to think how I would monitor via Ableton and mute the direct signal from the FM3 if I wanted to use plugins (as I do for certain tracks).
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Maybe I misread. You shouldn't be using the headphone out on the Mac. You will always have latency (unless you can lower your DAW buffer size to 32-64ms without freezes or pops). Either buy the headphone solution (I did a video on my channel I can post for you if you want - there are a couple and one is better than the other), or monitor from the FM3 through connected studio monitors (mute the track in DAW during record)
 
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orion32773 said:
Maybe I misread. You shouldn't be using the headphone out on the Mac. You will always have latency (unless you can lower your DAW buffer size to 32-64ms without freezes or pops). Either buy the headphone solution (I did a video on my channel I can post for you if you want - there are a couple and one is better than the other), or monitor from the FM3 through connected studio monitors (mute the track in DAW during record)
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I saw your video and ordered an adapter. I bought the headphone-less version because Cliff confirmed you could do that. Thank you for providing the part number.

I 100% understand what direct monitoring is. When tracking, if I am only using Fractal for effects, or just practicing, I will monitor direct through Apogee's Maestro. When I want to track with plugins, as many people do, I will monitor through Ableton, as many people do, and yes, I do understand that there is unavoidable latency no matter whether plugins are used when monitoring through the DAW.

My issue was that when I was monitoring through Ableton using the FM3 via USB it was inducing noticeably more latency than what I was used to when tracking guitars via direct 1/4"->Duet->monitoring through Ableton or Fractal->XLR->Duet->monitor through Ableton, which I have done many times. HOWEVER, as mentioned in my previous post, I am realizing that it is possible that the computer's headphone (built-in) out induces more latency than other devices (such as my Duet that I have used for years). That could be the bigger issue.

The main solution seems to be using headphones connected to the 2 outs of the FM3, as you have described, whether monitoring direct or through Ableton (if there is a way to mute the direct guitar signal coming from the FM3 while still sending the signal to Ableton).
 
jholt said:
I saw your video and ordered an adapter. I bought the headphone-less version because Cliff confirmed you could do that. Thank you for providing the part number.

I 100% understand what direct monitoring is. When tracking, if I am only using Fractal for effects, or just practicing, I will monitor direct through Apogee's Maestro. When I want to track with plugins, as many people do, I will monitor through Ableton, as many people do, and yes, I do understand that there is unavoidable latency no matter whether plugins are used when monitoring through the DAW.

My issue was that when I was monitoring through Ableton using the FM3 via USB it was inducing noticeably more latency than what I was used to when tracking guitars via direct 1/4"->Duet->monitoring through Ableton or Fractal->XLR->Duet->monitor through Ableton, which I have done many times. HOWEVER, as mentioned in my previous post, I am realizing that it is possible that the computer's headphone (built-in) out induces more latency than other devices (such as my Duet that I have used for years). That could be the bigger issue.

The main solution seems to be using headphones connected to the 2 outs of the FM3, as you have described, whether monitoring direct or through Ableton (if there is a way to mute the direct guitar signal coming from the FM3 while still sending the signal to Ableton).
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Ok, sorry, yes I missed the part about monitoring plug-ins while still using FM3 as the interface. My main issue is just using the FM3 as an interface, period. The recording is delayed so no matter how much I mute, each track get's more and more delayed so i have to manually shift the track audio over to get it in sync. All this said, it's possible that the issues resolved in 1.04 may hit yours as well.
 
What seems to be happening with the issue Cliff is addressing (recorded audio being out of time) is that the FM3 as an interface is reporting incorrect latency. Some interfaces do this, which is why Ableton has a manual Driver Error Compensation feature you can adjust to compensate for it. I'm trying to figure out a way to do Ableton's DEC test with the FM3 to get some results.
 
jholt said:
What seems to be happening with the issue Cliff is addressing (recorded audio being out of time) is that the FM3 as an interface is reporting incorrect latency. Some interfaces do this, which is why Ableton has a manual Driver Error Compensation feature you can adjust to compensate for it. I'm trying to figure out a way to do Ableton's DEC test with the FM3 to get some results.
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Logic has this as well which (for me) helped initially and then each subsequent track got worse even with the recording delay set, but even then, folks were saying the amount was excessive. Pro tools isnt even usable without manual intervention on each audio track you lay down. Their automatic delay comp isn't working the way people may expect it to work and doesn't affect audio track when you are running/tracking through a single interface.
 
orion32773 said:
Logic has this as well which (for me) helped initially and then each subsequent track got worse even with the recording delay set, but even then, folks were saying the amount was excessive. Pro tools isnt even usable without manual intervention on each audio track you lay down. Their automatic delay comp isn't working the way people may expect it to work and doesn't affect audio track when you are running/tracking through a single interface.
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Interesting! That sounds wild. At least Fractal is a company that is on this stuff and communicates with us. If it was some other brand I'm sure we'd just be guessing if/when we could get resolution.
 
If we do not have any USB issues and do not record, worth loading this ?
Anything else in here ?
Thanks !
 
Using FM3 with firmware ver 4.01. Latency is huge using GarageBand or Reaper - does not matter. if listening to the input of guitar with the playback of prior tracks, the guitar is not in sync. what do others do to get around the issue?
 
Fredmillard said:
Using FM3 with firmware ver 4.01. Latency is huge using GarageBand or Reaper - does not matter. if listening to the input of guitar with the playback of prior tracks, the guitar is not in sync. what do others do to get around the issue?
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It's unusual to monitor through a computer. That causes latency issues even under the best of circumstances. Instead, it's best to monitor direct, and thus avoid latency issues. See "Direct Monitoring" and "Latency compensation" here:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/axe-fx-for-the-recording-musician.177592/
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/latency-compensation-measurement.177851/
 
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