FM3 into tube combo amp, with power amp and cab sim left ON?

Ken Becker

Ken Becker

Member
Hi all, after years of using Fractal products in various ways - recording, live, FRFR, with separate power amp, direct to IEM, etc., I decided to run it with my Peavey Classic 50 combo from 1990 ish. I had never tried this, but I experimented with 4CM, just in front, and just the loop. Then I tried to run the FM3 with amp and cab modeling into the FX return of the Classic 50, and I was shocked at how good it sounded. I find, to my ear, that leaving the cab and poweramp emulation on actually sounds much better (I think the stock speakers in the Classic 50 are very bright), but I know this goes against the conventional wisdom on this topic (especially running an IR into a cab) ... has anybody tried this and/or can anybody explain why the cab emulation is actually superior in my case?
P.S., I don't think my ears are broken or that I have poor taste, but you never know...

Thanks all
 
My best guess, without actually hearing it, is that you have a bright preset and bright speakers, and they could use a little taming from the cab sim.
 
I've experienced the same thing with different amp models. Some sound great through a guitar amp with the Power Amp sim and Cab block on, others sound better with just the Power Amp sim on (Cab block off) and still others sounded best with both the Power Amp sim and Cab block off. No right or wrong way to do things with digital gear. Whatever gives you the results you want is all that matters.

The Cab block, using the simplest explanation, is an elaborate EQ. What typically happens with the Cab block on into a guitar cab is it puts the IR in series with the guitar speaker which usually introduces lows that typically don't translate well through a guitar speaker causing it to sound muffled and/or flubby with no definition. As @Rex alluded to, your preset is more than likely on the brighter side. Another factor could be the speaker in your amp is probably on the thinner/brighter side which the Cab block helps by adding some bottom end.

The same effect can be accomplished with IRs by running them in series rather than parallel. You can experiment with this in Cab Lab or maybe another IR mixer. Again, some combinations sound good but most will sound dark, muffled and flubby.
 
I love the FM3 through the return of my Egnater Tweaker into a 1x12 cab with a Celestion Blue. I find that keeping the power amp sims on for most amps sounds the best, but mostly prefer the cab sims off. Like all else, it depends on what your ears like to hear, the type of amp, speaker, etc.

The good news for me is that using AustinBuddy's Gold pack, I've never been happier with my tones, have not touched a single IR, and only struggle to choose which amazing amp I'm going to play each time. Too many fantastic tones, too little time!
 
I have another thread I started where I am doing something similar. And I get both sets of results.

Most presets running through it need some tweaking to get them to sound good. However some of them definitely sound better to me with deeper cabs and adding some deeper speaker resonance then with the cab sim off.

However I was given some good advice to try finding an overall eq that works for that guitar cab and that is probably a better solution in the long run.
 
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Thanks all, that's all helpful and logical information. I do think the stock speakers in the Classic 50 are both lacking bass and very bright. I was testing a bunch of patches into the Classic 50 and tweaking them to make them more palatable, and then testing them in my JBL 3 Series MK II monitors (Not the best but good enough for this test) and every patch was dull with too much low end, and was at once harsh and lacking highs and upper mids, so my amp is clearly biasing everything with lots of high and little lows. However, this setup (through the Peavey, adjusting for whatever that speaker and power amp imparts) is actually the best I've gotten Fractal gear to sound loud and "in the room", so far. Though, I have never tried it with a good quality power amp. I did have an Atomic CLR cab that was pretty good, but couldn't seem to cut out harshness with any amount of EQ, low or hi-passing, etc.
 
The best success I had was running into the front of an amp set with a bit of hair on the clean channel, treble turned all the way down. That was a lesson in not looking at the knob positions but rather using my ears to dial in a tone that worked. There's no rule about not using the extreme settings of a control. I believe a lot of players miss out on great tones simply because they get wrapped up in "it's not supposed to sound good like that" without even trying. Good on ya for experimenting!
 
Though I try to use my ears as is well recommended here, I do "feel better" about getting to a good tone with settings that I can understand and which align with some common practice for the given amp/guitar etc. If I'm having to use extreme settings to get a good basic tone (personally, I consider stacked cabs extreme), then I prefer to find a way around that if possible with more conventional methods. The great thing about Axefx is that proven practice in the real amp world applies - where as with some other modelling tools one may need extreme or "odd" settings just to compensate for modelling deficiencies at which point, with those tools, the only option may often be to just spin the dials any which way and listen.
 
Agreed on both points ... There's definitely an unease with blindly arriving at solutions unconventionally, in that you feel like you're floating and can't get back there if you had to recreate it. I too like to know what I'm doing, but I find that I suffer from analysis paralysis really quickly, and my ears start playing tricks on me and my eyes take over. It's easy to throw away hours that could've been spent on music, on tweaking and losing perspective. But I think my own little test proves that the AxeFX is useful in many ways that never get discussed (But maybe they do on this forum, I just started checking it out)
 
JoKeR III said:
The best success I had was running into the front of an amp set with a bit of hair on the clean channel, treble turned all the way down. That was a lesson in not looking at the knob positions but rather using my ears to dial in a tone that worked. There's no rule about not using the extreme settings of a control. I believe a lot of players miss out on great tones simply because they get wrapped up in "it's not supposed to sound good like that" without even trying. Good on ya for experimenting!
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That's interesting, was that superior to bypassing the preamp, or was there no FX loop on this amp?
 
Lots run modelers succesfully into front end of a clean amp. It works sometimes w my combo but, as mentioned above, I never feel comfortable with it: preamp sim > poweramp sim > cab sim > preamp > poweramp > cab - too much going on.
 
I'm curious for the OP, i have two patches attached. The first one the clean sounds reasonable through my cab / amp with all the sims on horrid with the cab disabled.

the other scenes not so good anyway around on the fm3 (although better through headphones)

The 415 patch i updated and I'm finding it much better through the other scenes through the cab.

I'm curious if you have similar results with your setup.

my instrument were a p90 hollowbody and a dual humbucker mostly on split and i adjust the git vol / tone pots as needed per scene
 

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Ronrad said:
I'm curious for the OP, i have two patches attached. The first one the clean sounds reasonable through my cab / amp with all the sims on horrid with the cab disabled.

the other scenes not so good anyway around on the fm3 (although better through headphones)

The 415 patch i updated and I'm finding it much better through the other scenes through the cab.

I'm curious if you have similar results with your setup.

my instrument were a p90 hollowbody and a dual humbucker mostly on split and i adjust the git vol / tone pots as needed per scene
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Tried both into the FX return on the Classic 50 ... definitely better with the cab/amp sims on. When I deactivated them, it was harsh in the highs and missing low end, which is what I've been running into with basically every patch/amp/cab combination
 
Ken Becker said:
Tried both into the FX return on the Classic 50 ... definitely better with the cab/amp sims on. When I deactivated them, it was harsh in the highs and missing low end, which is what I've been running into with basically every patch/amp/cab combination
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I have the same on my setup I was also hearing almost a low fi type tone from the 402 patch on scenes 2+ where it just sounded muffled almost like a blown tweeter on a two way speaker with the cab off.
 
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