FM3 for REAL Jazz

[Poparad]

I still think you're being unnecessarily biased against Fender amps. So many of the greats, including Joe Pass, Wes, Barney Kessel, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Tal Farlow, Herb Ellis, Emily Remler, later electric Django, Bireli when he's on archtop, Pasquale Grasso, etc, all used Fenders and got that sound. I was recently reading through a Polytone thread on another forum (trying to track down why I'm getting intermittent distortion on mine) and came across a post by Jack Zucker, author of Sheets of Sound and also a Fractal user (sometimes posts here) and notorious tone hound. His dad used to drive around Kessel, Burrell, and so on when they were in D.C. for gigs and they would complain about having to play through Polytones and other SS amps when that's all the venue had. They all preferred Twins and Deluxes and other classic tube amps.

Edit: Here's the thread:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/gui...s-so-little-inside-polytone-mini-brute-2.html

Hey @jzucker what sort of things have you done to dial in archtop tones on Fractal devices?

 

[manu68]

Sorry , I have myself an Axe FX II .
I ignored that the FM3 doesn't have tone match feature.

 

[JoKeR III]

Unfortunately, for what I know and read there's no Tone Matching block on FM3, glad if I'm missing something here!

Manu, thank you for your contribution, if you read the first post, I spent so much effort to try to narrow the discussion on the classic jazz tone I'm looking for, unfortunately (again) without any success.

All amps you mentioned are not focused on jazz tone, unfortunately (again) play them in the clean zone doesnt make them suitable (you can read detailed reasons in the 'wish thread' with same name), such as one and only cranked amp type isnt good for all rock genres.

ciao

As has been said in both threads, there are many people here that are willing to help but only if you let them and only if you have an open mind and ears. There is no doubt the tone you are looking for is possible with the amps and tools currently available in the FM3.

The last sentence leads me to believe that you're not willing to try any suggestions of how to get the tone you want with the FM3 that has an amp other than what you are wishing for. If that's the case, then there's really no need for any further discussion. It would be a shame though to miss out on the opportunity to discover your tone, one that you may have never thought possible and be even better than what you can get with a Henriksen or Polytone amp.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

As has been said in both threads, there are many people here that are willing to help but only if you let them and only if you have an open mind and ears. There is no doubt the tone you are looking for is possible with the amps and tools currently available in the FM3.

The last sentence leads me to believe that you're not willing to try any suggestions of how to get the tone you want with the FM3 that has an amp other than what you are wishing for. If that's the case, then there's really no need for any further discussion. It would be a shame though to miss out on the opportunity to discover your tone, one that you may have never thought possible and be even better than what you can get with a Henriksen or Polytone amp.

Agreed completely.

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

Yep, the fact that a simple, warm Polytone-like sound is not an out of the box feature is a little odd to me. I don't find it nearly as easy to dial in a great Jazz tone with a simple Fender clean amp, Roland JC or other clean type amp. Back when I was a guitar student: ensembles, recitals, juries- Polytones were ubiquitous, and plugging in with the controls at 12 O'clock, rolling back the treble on your guitar, boom, you were there. It's a very minor aspect of my playing, so a minor inconvenience at most, and I wouldn't bring my Fractal to a straight-ahead jazz gig anyway.

I don't say this because I have preconceived notions about RL amps. I've tried for this tone with numerous amp/cab combinations- like any of the onboard Fractal amps that even remotely have a reputation as a good clean amp. To me it's just not in Fractal's wheel house. I use my 60s Twin all day long for sounds like this, and the FAS version is OK, but I'm tweaking it every time!

 

[Dispetech]

At this point I would suggest to the OP to change the Thread Title to something like :
"FM3 for Polytone inspired Jazz tone",
or by adding just two words:
" FM3 for REAL Polytone Jazz tone".

I'm afraid Tone Match is not available in FM3. It would be interesting and constructive if some Axe-Fx2/3 owners would work on it and share the results.

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

At this point I would suggest to the OP to change the Thread Title to something like :
"FM3 for Polytone inspired Jazz tone",
or by adding just two words:
" FM3 for REAL Polytone Jazz tone".

I'm afraid Tone Match is not available in FM3. It would be interesting and constructive if some Axe-Fx2/3 owners would work on it and share the results.

Disagree with that because there are a few amps that do this. In my case the Polytone is the only one I have direct experience with. I think this is a case where general experience with clean amps, and logical assumptions about Fractal amps, don't get you there!

 

[abendJazz]

@abendJazz what's the advantage of using a complex device that can generate many kinds of tones and effects, if you only want one sound, and can't figure out how to get it out of that device?

Is it portability you're after? The bigger part of an FM3 rig is going to be your monitoring (amp and speakers), which isn't likely to be much smaller or lighter than one of your reference amps.

Back in Fractal land, I can't get past the idea that if you want completely clean and uncompressed tone, the only variable left is EQ, which the FM3 gives you control over in many ways. What else is there?

well, as you easily guessed , FM3 is couple kg, any other amps I have is 12-15 kg, I live on 3rd floor without elevator...
any rehearsal room and most place where I can gig have PA devices with mixer.

 

[abendJazz]

As has been said in both threads, there are many people here that are willing to help but only if you let them and only if you have an open mind and ears. There is no doubt the tone you are looking for is possible with the amps and tools currently available in the FM3.

The last sentence leads me to believe that you're not willing to try any suggestions of how to get the tone you want with the FM3 that has an amp other than what you are wishing for. If that's the case, then there's really no need for any further discussion. It would be a shame though to miss out on the opportunity to discover your tone, one that you may have never thought possible and be even better than what you can get with a Henriksen or Polytone amp.

Your assumption doesnt match with mine: I'm trying hard to learn FM3 and look for tweaks/turnarounds/etc to get around there, with some results for sure,
but sure as well I miss a real jazz focused modelled amp.
Surprised that I got so many answers from other users like 'just get a real jazz amp'...

 

[abendJazz]

I still think you're being unnecessarily biased against Fender amps. So many of the greats, including Joe Pass, Wes, Barney Kessel, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Tal Farlow, Herb Ellis, Emily Remler, later electric Django, Bireli when he's on archtop, Pasquale Grasso, etc, all used Fenders and got that sound. I was recently reading through a Polytone thread on another forum (trying to track down why I'm getting intermittent distortion on mine) and came across a post by Jack Zucker, author of Sheets of Sound and also a Fractal user (sometimes posts here) and notorious tone hound. His dad used to drive around Kessel, Burrell, and so on when they were in D.C. for gigs and they would complain about having to play through Polytones and other SS amps when that's all the venue had. They all preferred Twins and Deluxes and other classic tube amps.

Edit: Here's the thread:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/gui...s-so-little-inside-polytone-mini-brute-2.html

Hey @jzucker what sort of things have you done to dial in archtop tones on Fractal devices?

Poparad, I already thank you for your contribution,
I'm not sure that can be of any utility for any user to keep explaining me that I'm looking for the wrong tone... I mean, seriously?

I posted clips, if you have advices on how to get THOSE sounds, your contribution will be precious then

peace
fabio

 

[abendJazz]

Yep, the fact that a simple, warm Polytone-like sound is not an out of the box feature is a little odd to me. I don't find it nearly as easy to dial in a great Jazz tone with a simple Fender clean amp, Roland JC or other clean type amp. Back when I was a guitar student: ensembles, recitals, juries- Polytones were ubiquitous, and plugging in with the controls at 12 O'clock, rolling back the treble on your guitar, boom, you were there. It's a very minor aspect of my playing, so a minor inconvenience at most, and I wouldn't bring my Fractal to a straight-ahead jazz gig anyway.

I don't say this because I have preconceived notions about RL amps. I've tried for this tone with numerous amp/cab combinations- like any of the onboard Fractal amps that even remotely have a reputation as a good clean amp. To me it's just not in Fractal's wheel house. I use my 60s Twin all day long for sounds like this, and the FAS version is OK, but I'm tweaking it every time!

Agree completely.
It's not a critic to anything or anyone, just a fact.
I hope I'm wrong, but unfortunately from the feedbacks I got, I wouldnt hope to have an SS jazz amp modelled any soon.
In this perspective, the suggestions I'm collecting here to 'turnaround' this issue are precious, I'm doing experiments and Ill post for sure if I got the desired results.

cheers
fabio

 

[abendJazz]

At this point I would suggest to the OP to change the Thread Title to something like :
"FM3 for Polytone inspired Jazz tone",
or by adding just two words:
" FM3 for REAL Polytone Jazz tone".

I'm afraid Tone Match is not available in FM3. It would be interesting and constructive if some Axe-Fx2/3 owners would work on it and share the results.

+1!! It would be great if someone with Ax-FX could/would do that tone matching!

about the title, there are others than Polytone, that's why;
at the moment, most jazz guitarists I know (myself included) are biased toward the 'elegant' sound of Henriksen, often called the 'new Polytone'

 

[Chromatizm]

Just a thought
Let's try something else, let's go in a different direction
Try the Archean clean model
It has probably the most clean headroom out of everything we have in Fractal
Set it to a low gain so it would never clip the tubes no matter how hard you try
Play with EQ a little, dial high frequencies out, maybe boost mids a bit
Try it with some dark cabs, not sure what to suggest here, maybe Rumbles, they are pretty dark (imo) and very very clean
Cut the highs in the cab block to avoid any harshness and get the rounder amp-in-a-room tone (also check Carter Cooper's video on the amp-in-a-room approach to EQ)
See if it gets you closer to the target than Fenders which tend to clip quite early actually

 

[Dispetech]

I took the hint only because I noticed that the thread title focused some on the meaning of "REAL Jazz" and not on the problem posed by the OP.

Sure other amps are capable of reproducing the tone the OP has in mind, but a title should summarize the topic and give as clear an idea as possible of what you want to discuss.
It wouldn't be convenient to put a list of 4-5 amps in the title, don't you think?

Personally I love Fender amps, my first serious amp was a Fender 75 amp that I took apart, repaired, customized and still have.
What little I know about electronics I owe to this amp and its factory defects (it burned the speakers and no one understood why).

I also had a Twin that Kenny Burrell played on when he came to Genoa in concert.
I've never owned a Polytone but in 46 years (of playing) I've played a few (obviously).

Well: Fenders and Polytones sound different: different in note attack, transient response, basic EQ, they are different beasts.

You may prefer one or the other, but pretending to get the sound of one from the other is tiring to say the least.

Why go after the distorted sound of the Vox when you already have a fantastic distorted sound with a Marshall?
If you move the question to the "rock" world, you realize that it doesn't make sense.

Finally: it is clear that those who turn to a device like the FM3 do not need just one sound, but would like to exploit its potential in different styles and with different guitars.

 

[JoKeR III]

Your assumption doesnt match with mine: I'm trying hard to learn FM3 and look for tweaks/turnarounds/etc to get around there, with some results for sure,

Again, there may be something getting lost in translation but we can only draw conclusions based upon your comments. Have you tried any of the recommended amps or have you dismissed them because you already believe they won't work?

 

[Chromatizm]

Why go after the distorted sound of the Vox when you already have a fantastic distorted sound with a Marshall?

Well, maybe because Vox is quite surely one of the "big three" rock sounds, along with Marshall and Mesa?

 

[PatrickWD]

I have tried to make a quick preset here to show a few possible jazz sounds on the Fm3.
This is the first time i share a preset, so i'm not shure if i did the sharing process right.

This is not meant to work as an actual preset, but as a way of showing a few various options for jazz on the Fm3.

Scene 1: Ampless. This is my try for creating something more like a solid state jazz amp. Compressor, Geq, Reverb, 1x10 princeton cab
Scene 2: Cleaned up princeton. This is a princeton i have done what i can to reduce distortion on. I increased the variac voltage, lowered suply sag, lowered gain and input trim. I also did a slight cut in input eq on 2.8 khz.
Scene 3: Princeton. This is how i like it. Since i use Ownhammer irs i couldn't get the exact sound i use, but close with a factory cab.
Scene 4: 5f8 tweed. This amp has very warm mids. I lowered gain and input trim to get it cleaner.
Scene 5: ODS. Cleaned up both the preamp and poweramp gain to get it clean.

Since all guitars and setups are different, it will probably take some adjustement for your setup. But i think this can be a good starting point.
I used my Heritage 535 guitar and a Red Sound Elis8 FRFR to dial in these.

 

[PatrickWD]

Here's a cleaned up Tweed deluxe as well. Might be too much tubes for you, but it has a great warm classic jazz tone with lots of mids.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Again, there may be something getting lost in translation but we can only draw conclusions based upon your comments. Have you tried any of the recommended amps or have you dismissed them because you already believe they won't work?

^This^

The best way to get a great sound with any amp is to begin turning the knobs. Anyone who has gone amp shopping quickly learns to try different amps and explore the range of sounds they can make. Some never make it to the second go-round, but it's trying them and the spin-the-knobs thing that is important. I used to play in a stage band, and I've used Polytone amps, and, yep, we turned the knobs because guitars AND amps, even within the same brand, all sound different. Physics is funny that way.

That knob-twiddling process is essential with modelers too, including Fractal's products. While there are factory presets, they're never meant to be the be-all-end-all sound for that particular amp, they're hints of what the user can turn them into. The user is expected to adjust them to their taste because everyone has a different idea of how an amp should sound, whether it's the analog or the digital version. These units can be used as a turnkey solution only running the factory presets but turning the knobs will result in a customized match of the user's expectations. Perhaps the OP hasn't bounced off many amps over the years and expects a turnkey solution but I never once found an amp that I didn't have to turn into my idea of what it should sound like, and, dang it, the knobs would change during transport and setup or tear down and I'd have to readjust.

This conversation has branched over three separate threads. The first was closed because it was non-productive. Two others now exist with the same title, which, if nothing else is confusing and dilutes everyone's effort toward a goal. Both threads seem to be accomplishing little because if they were we'd be seeing different threads asking how to do X or fix problem Y.

The community has an incredible wealth of experience and wisdom with people who have toured the world professionally, studio gurus, weekend warriors, and bedroom players, covering every genre of music, and some have been doing it for 50+ years. We love helping but there seems to have been a continual rejection of the help, wisdom and experience freely given for what seems to me to be a judgment that the help given is based on ignorance of a genre that only the OP reaaaaallly knows, or suggestions of ways to achieve a desirable sound are rejected immediately, and several times I've seen statements from the OP that smell like #3 in the forum rules.

I'd rather see progress. I want to read a thread from the OP saying "I tried these things and ran into this particular problem; The manual and Wiki and threads 1, 2 and 3 said to try these things but they didn't work. What do I try next?" That would be a 180º change in the direction, would be much more positive and would help the community even more.

 

[Kelleys Heroes]

^This^

The best way to get a great sound with any amp is to begin turning the knobs. Anyone who has gone amp shopping quickly learns to try different amps and explore the range of sounds they can make. Some never make it to the second go-round, but it's trying them and the spin-the-knobs thing that is important. I used to play in a stage band, and I've used Polytone amps, and, yep, we turned the knobs because guitars AND amps, even within the same brand, all sound different. Physics is funny that way.

That knob-twiddling process is essential with modelers too, including Fractal's products. While there are factory presets, they're never meant to be the be-all-end-all sound for that particular amp, they're hints of what the user can turn them into. The user is expected to adjust them to their taste because everyone has a different idea of how an amp should sound, whether it's the analog or the digital version. These units can be used as a turnkey solution only running the factory presets but turning the knobs will result in a customized match of the user's expectations. Perhaps the OP hasn't bounced off many amps over the years and expects a turnkey solution but I never once found an amp that I didn't have to turn into my idea of what it should sound like, and, dang it, the knobs would change during transport and setup or tear down and I'd have to readjust.

This conversation has branched over three separate threads. The first was closed because it was non-productive. Two others now exist with the same title, which, if nothing else is confusing and dilutes everyone's effort toward a goal. Both threads seem to be accomplishing little because if they were we'd be seeing different threads asking how to do X or fix problem Y.

The community has an incredible wealth of experience and wisdom with people who have toured the world professionally, studio gurus, weekend warriors, and bedroom players, covering every genre of music, and some have been doing it for 50+ years. We love helping but there seems to have been a continual rejection of the help, wisdom and experience freely given for what seems to me to be a judgment that the help given is based on ignorance of a genre that only the OP reaaaaallly knows, or suggestions of ways to achieve a desirable sound are rejected immediately, and several times I've seen statements from the OP that smell like #3 in the forum rules.

I'd rather see progress. I want to read a thread saying "I tried these things and ran into this particular problem; The manual and Wiki and threads 1, 2 and 3 said to try these things but they didn't work. What do I try next?" That would be a 180º change in the direction, would be much more positive and would help the community even more.

Look at the two posts right before yours, seems like progress. And helpful.