Fletcher Munson curve effect on amp modeling

In the end it comes down to individual ears and individual perceptions of the sound content at a particular volume in a particular environment. What you perceive with your ears and your brain will be different from what I perceive with mine.
To find YOUR best sound at different volumes turn things up to that volume and dial it in until it sounds like you want it. I can guarantee it will be somewhat different from anyone else.

As a side note...Fletcher Munson curves were derived from various loudness levels through headphones. A more accurate relation to us as musicians would be Robinson-Dadson curves which were derived from a loudspeaker. But....Also in an anechoic room. Live sound environments and studio environments are neither exclusively headphones or anechoic so neither of these totally applies to amplification in this way. The general "rules" of each have some relation to our perception, but rooms add all sorts of reflections and noise which pollute what we hear anyway.

So....All I did is repeat what everybody else said in a lot more words... SMH....
 
muudrock said:
In the end it comes down to individual ears and individual perceptions of the sound content at a particular volume in a particular environment. What you perceive with your ears and your brain will be different from what I perceive with mine.
To find YOUR best sound at different volumes turn things up to that volume and dial it in until it sounds like you want it. I can guarantee it will be somewhat different from anyone else.

As a side note...Fletcher Munson curves were derived from various loudness levels through headphones. A more accurate relation to us as musicians would be Robinson-Dadson curves which were derived from a loudspeaker. But....Also in an anechoic room. Live sound environments and studio environments are neither exclusively headphones or anechoic so neither of these totally applies to amplification in this way. The general "rules" of each have some relation to our perception, but rooms add all sorts of reflections and noise which pollute what we hear anyway.

So....All I did is repeat what everybody else said in a lot more words... SMH....
Click to expand...
i like those words though. i haven't heard about the RD curves ever :)

what complicates everything though is that every room is different, so even if the FM curve or whatever was a measurable constant (or is it already hahah), different rooms would STILL be different and you'd have to adapt differently regardless. so even if an Axe Preset was created at 80 dB and optimized for FM, if you play it at 80 dB in your room, it still may not sound correct at all!

and then we all have different perceptions of good and bad tone. for example, some people prefer the Axe direct with Cab Sims turned off. they just do. and that's ok. to them, it gets the tone they desire. imagine if you were trying to discuss good vs bad tone with someone who likes Cab Sims off, while you prefer Cab Sims on... that's why sometimes it's pointless (and impossible from a support standpoint) to help someone create a "good" tone.
 
muudrock said:
In the end it comes down to individual ears and individual perceptions of the sound content at a particular volume in a particular environment. What you perceive with your ears and your brain will be different from what I perceive with mine.
To find YOUR best sound at different volumes turn things up to that volume and dial it in until it sounds like you want it. I can guarantee it will be somewhat different from anyone else.

As a side note...Fletcher Munson curves were derived from various loudness levels through headphones. A more accurate relation to us as musicians would be Robinson-Dadson curves which were derived from a loudspeaker. But....Also in an anechoic room. Live sound environments and studio environments are neither exclusively headphones or anechoic so neither of these totally applies to amplification in this way. The general "rules" of each have some relation to our perception, but rooms add all sorts of reflections and noise which pollute what we hear anyway.

So....All I did is repeat what everybody else said in a lot more words... SMH....
Click to expand...

Yeah , I chose to use Fletcher-Munson instead of Robinson-Dadson because the basic principle is there , and more people would know what it implied.
Rock n Roll ain't noise pollution.
 
Robinson & Dadson? The sneaky bastards, that's what was wrong all along ...... we've been told to expect Fletcher & Munson and let the others slip in un-noticed. Everything will be cool now.
 
maxdown said:
Robinson & Dadson? The sneaky bastards, that's what was wrong all along ...... we've been told to expect Fletcher & Munson and let the others slip in un-noticed. Everything will be cool now.
Click to expand...
Just spreading the gospel brother
 
Interesting discussion. In addition to the room's impact on tone we have variations in how "full range, flat response" a particular monitor speaker is. I have two different high end in-ear monitors from the same company. One is custom moulded and one is a universal, but both use the same drivers. One makes my guitar sound balanced and the other adds brightness and cut. That's my perception based on a tone dialled in using the first in-ear set I mentioned. If I dial in using the second set my perception would reverse (tone would be dull sounding on the first set or nicely balanced on the second). Mid's are so critical to guitar, and my second in-ear monitor seems to have more upper mids, or perhaps the first doesn't have quite enough.

My point is that the speaker you dial in your tone with is your reference, and the next guy may have a response peak or valley you don't. That will change what he hears, even if everything else were (somehow) identical.

What's great about the AxeFx is that I have all the tools on-board to compensate. I have a graphic EQ in all my presets that adjusts my tone so that high SPL live levels sound reasonably close to the lower SPL I create the patch with. I also have a parametric EQ that compensates for the difference between my in-ears and my FRFR stage monitor. Either of these EQ's can be enabled or disabled in all my patches by changing one controller setting in the IO menu on the front panel. It's so easy to do. I can have my cake and eat it too, so to speak.

Terry.
 
1poorplayer said:
Since factory preset appeal is purely subjective , I was curious to know what the "listening environment" is , while Fractal makes THEIR choices. The fact that so many of you admit your dislike of their settings , validates the question. The mention of the FM curve , was my idea as a possible reason for many , like yourself , to have the need to tweak every preset. I was simply giving Fractal the benefit of the doubt , that they in fact , DO know what sounds good , and perhaps the application or environmental factors that you're using them in - are DIFFERENT than those that Fractal had when they made them.
You share your buddies opinions , and others share mine.
I think the boys at Fractal know tone. Wanting to know if the FM curve could be an unnoticed variable in the like/dislike debate for factory presets (or the amp/matching cab - presets) isn't a crime. Lol.
Tweak on and be happy...... moot.
Love that word.
Click to expand...

IMO, all curiosity is valid (for it is the curious who learn and thus evolve), however, some explorations may amount to fruitless errands...

The FM curve will indeed influence choices made by preset designers; in all likelihood, only to the extent that it improves those choices, as FAS operators are undoubtedly aware of the need to circumvent the perils of perceived loudness (i.e., create at reasonably high volume). Ironically, my issue with factory presets might be attributed to my preferred monitoring level, which is rather low. Unfortunately, due to this monitoring preference, FAS preset designs may not align with my tastes. Fortunately, solutions are abundant and rudimentary.

At any rate, I am certain that FAS operators are fastidious about creating and delivering excellent products- I own an XL and MFC.

What I am not assured of is their ability to create presets that will sound "good"* via EMG-66N/89R pickups and Evidence Audio Lyric HG/Melody cables monitored through
a Mackie Big Knob using Sennheiser HD 280 Pro headphones or Mackie HR824s at relatively low volume.



*Note: I prefer guitar tones that feature low and middle frequencies prominently, with low-end emphasis.
 
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