Fletcher Munson curve effect on amp modeling

[chris]

I would agree to disagree.
Someone MUST make the decision on which IR used to "match" with each amp being modeled. Pretty tough to make that decision without listening.
How loud the example is during the .....listening , would affect the decision , - due to the FM effect.

Are you talking about the Presets? Or the amp model itself?

So if the amp model is independent of volume and the IR capture is independent of volume, there's not much in a modeled rig that's dependent on the volume at which Cliff and company worked.

This, exactly. Again, unless you are talking about the Factory Presets, where yes, someone created the overall tone at a particular volume and probably EQ'd to taste at that volume.

But a preset is not indicative of the amp model itself.

 

[1poorplayer]

They don't. Before you shrug off my answer, bear me out...

• Volume doesn't matter with amp sims. The models are designed to replicate the real thing so for any given setting, the output waveform is the same for any given input waveform. Volume is just the amplitude of the wave form but there's no timbral difference associated with it.
• Volume doesn't matter with cab sims. Cabs themselves are pretty much linear in response until you get to the breaking point. Don't bother arguing with me. If you must, go to TGP to have that discussion with Jay Mitchell. So the volume at which the IR is captured affects S/N ratio more than timbre.

So if the amp model is independent of volume and the IR capture is independent of volume, there's not much in a modeled rig that's dependent on the volume at which Cliff and company worked.

Hey , I don't want a war here. I don't need to go argue with Jay at TGP either.
You're missing my point. I'm not saying that the IR's themselves , when created , are affected by volume. I'm saying the IR that is CHOSEN by the company to represent the "matched" cab for any given amp model had to be in fact - CHOSEN. In order to choose the best one , wouldn't they have to consider more than one ? If so , they would have to LISTEN to it. How loud they listened to the choices would have an effect on determining the best choice. Am I really not thinking about this right ?
I thought it was a simple concept when I asked the question , but I must be missing something. Forgive me if I am. I really don't want an argument.

 

[1poorplayer]

Are you talking about the Presets? Or the amp model itself?

Amp model - AND - it's matched cab.


But a preset is not indicative of the amp model itself.

A preset with all effects off , leaving an amp model and it's MATCHED cab , would be the same as an amp model itself.

 

[chris]

A preset with all effects off , leaving an amp model and it's MATCHED cab , would be the same as an amp model itself.

That's still a Preset though, whether it's a "matched cab" or not. With the Preset creation in mind, perhaps there was a particular volume it was created at.

But the amp algorithms and IR capture process do not inherently have an "optimum" performance volume that negates the FM curve.

I use amps NOT with their matched cab all the time. Is there an optimum there?

 

[Guillaume Lortie]

A preset with all effects off , leaving an amp model and it's MATCHED cab , would be the same as an amp model itself.

I think it's a case of what should go with what, boogie head with boogie cabs and 5150 with 5150 cabs kind of thing, dot over think presets, they are ony there to fill the bank, I don't think any serious pro or giging guy here use factory presets.
they are only there to give you an idea.

 

[Stratman68]

the replications were made to be just like the real things, and those don't have an optimum full-range speaker volume.

if you turn up, there will be more bass and treble to your ears. that's all there is to it, no optimum. rooms and speakers used also make a difference, of course.

create your tones at (or as close to) the volume you'll perform and everything will be right.

Exactly--I was trying to figure best way to say this, but you got it just right..............Thank you Chris

 

[1poorplayer]

That's still a Preset though, whether it's a "matched cab" or not. With the Preset creation in mind, perhaps there was a particular volume it was created at.

But the amp algorithms and IR capture process do not inherently have an "optimum" performance volume that negates the FM curve.

I use amps NOT with their matched cab all the time. Is there an optimum there?

Whew , ...... I'm not saying you can't have your own preference. It's always interesting to ask a question to a group , and then someone puts on the boxing gloves.
Try listening to your Fractal amp model -direct - without a cab next time.
The company MUST select a cab IR to represent a modeled amp.
I said nothing about the IR "capture process". I said -at what volume does Fractal CHOOSE - which - IR to represent each amp model ? Simple .
-whether you like their choice is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[1poorplayer]

I think it's a case of what should go with what, boogie head with boogie cabs and 5150 with 5150 cabs kind of thing, dot over think presets, they are ony there to fill the bank, I don't think any serious pro or giging guy here use factory presets.
they are only there to give you an idea.

I agree. But , I'll give Fractal the benefit of knowing great tone. I'm merely asking - at what volume do THEY decide which cab IR sounds best with each amp. I thought someone IN THE KNOW would post , but perhaps it's a trade secret.
No big deal. I can drop it.

 

[chris]

It's always interesting to ask a question to a group , and then someone puts on the boxing gloves.

there are no boxing gloves at all here. you just don't like my answer, but it's because i've been answering your first question...

to be honest, i did miss in the thread when you changed your question from the thread topic and first post of FM curve in general, to the new question of how do they choose an IR and at what volume.

that's why i kept bringing up Presets vs the individual components. case in point, you are talking about Presets and asking at what volume do they design presets, a process where they choose an IR/cab to go with an Amp model.

sorry none of us know for certain. i doubt it's a trade secret, but if people read the first post as usual, they will not know of the new question that developed later in the thread, which is perhaps why no one has the answer you want.

 

[aleclee]

If you're asking what volume Cliff & co audition IRs at when selecting which ones to use, you're going way way way down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day, their listening volume has nothing to do with your use case.

 

[1poorplayer]

If you're asking what volume Cliff & co audition IRs at when selecting which ones to use, you're going way way way down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day, their listening volume has nothing to do with your use case.

Yup. That's pretty much what I'm asking.

Ok then , I guess their listening volume has nothing to do with my use case.

Thanks guys. See you around the forum.

 

[jesussaddle]

Exactly. If you play thru a modeler , thru a FOH system, at a live band volume - VS playing an amp modeler thru headphones in a bedroom ..... it will sound different.

Whether it will require an EQ change in order to compensate for the FM effect...... during bedroom/headphone listening -OR- during FOH/loudspeaker listening ....... would depend on the volume and conditions the amp modeler was designed to sound best at , initially.
That's all I asked.
Maybe I should have said , "Does anyone know what dB spl Fractal uses when making amp presets ?"

I get you. I think what is at point here is, does a unit with as much processing functionalities as the Axe get tailored at a particular volume, if its matching the physical responses of circuitry. I would hazard to say no. It is just modeling the flow...so tailoring it differently than direct to the physical measurements is done as little as possible or the amp models would not be what they are, models of the behavior of amps, not at any one volume, but just the amps at all volumes.

Or is it the other way around? Does tweaking get done of the models that depends on a lot of taste elements, selected at some particular volume settings? I would see this as maybe the state of the art years ago - but not with Fractal at this stage. I would say these are packages of response at all volumes; & and just more & more carefully and creatively designed solutions towards achieving them.

 

[1poorplayer]

I get you. I think what is at point here is, does a unit with as much processing functionalities as the Axe get tailored at a particular volume, if its matching the physical responses of circuitry. I would hazard to say no. It is just modeling the flow...so tailoring it differently than direct to the physical measurements is done as little as possible or the amp models would not be what they are, models of the behavior of amps, not at any one volume, but just the amps at all volumes.

Or is it the other way around? Does tweaking get done of the models that depends on a lot of taste elements, selected at some particular volume settings? I would see this as maybe the state of the art years ago - but not with Fractal at this stage. I would say these are packages of response at all volumes; & and just more & more carefully and creatively designed solutions towards achieving them.

God bless you. This thread got way too deep. It's all good. Lol. Looking forward to the AX8.

 

[jesussaddle]

One thing I deal with all the time in relation to this, is the nonlinear aspect of this Munson Curve theory relative to ear fatigue along a timeline, of say a pitcher of lager. Or wait, is it the mind-fatigue of thinking about this ear fatigue that, when extruded into mathematical approximates, is more precisely described as nonlinear, when smashed, than an exceptional tasting slice of some pizza from some pizza joint that was so too good to have written down an address or name for, before it was just off-topic, speaking of my posts generally.

 

[vulcan32]

If you're asking what volume Cliff & co audition IRs at when selecting which ones to use, you're going way way way down the rabbit hole. At the end of the day, their listening volume has nothing to do with your use case.

This. (in addition to everything that Chris has stated)

Preset creation is ultimately a subjective exercise- what is good for the goose is often deemed unacceptable by the gander... the question, or more accurately stated, its answer is moot.

I suspect that presets are designed to provide a sonic platform upon which users can build and improve. Though I seldom utilize factory presets, customizing these platforms for my playing style, equipment and listening environs routinely requires less than 10 minutes.

 

[1poorplayer]

This. (in addition to everything that Chris has stated)

Preset creation is ultimately a subjective exercise- what is good for the goose is often deemed unacceptable by the gander... the question, or more accurately stated, its answer is moot.

I suspect that presets are designed to provide a sonic platform upon which users can build and improve. Though I seldom utilize factory presets, customizing these platforms for my playing style, equipment and listening environs routinely requires less than 10 minutes.

Since factory preset appeal is purely subjective , I was curious to know what the "listening environment" is , while Fractal makes THEIR choices. The fact that so many of you admit your dislike of their settings , validates the question. The mention of the FM curve , was my idea as a possible reason for many , like yourself , to have the need to tweak every preset. I was simply giving Fractal the benefit of the doubt , that they in fact , DO know what sounds good , and perhaps the application or environmental factors that you're using them in - are DIFFERENT than those that Fractal had when they made them.
You share your buddies opinions , and others share mine.
I think the boys at Fractal know tone. Wanting to know if the FM curve could be an unnoticed variable in the like/dislike debate for factory presets (or the amp/matching cab - presets) isn't a crime. Lol.
Tweak on and be happy...... moot.
Love that word.

 

[maxdown]

The quest would be to find out from each Factory Preset or amp/cab creator:

What guitar was used

What pickups where used

What outboard monitoring amp/speakers were used

What dB level was used

What room acoustics values

How tired were their ears

etc.

But there's no need to ask because the answer is ...... 42

 

[1poorplayer]

The quest would be to find out from each Factory Preset or amp/cab creator:

What guitar was used

What pickups where used

What outboard monitoring amp/speakers were used

What dB level was used

What room acoustics values

How tired were their ears

etc.

But there's no need to ask because the answer is ...... 42

Yup. Pretty close. What guitar would be helpful for sure.
Provided they were knowledgeable enough to use speakers with a flat response , and were doing so in a proper acoustic room , which I have no doubt , that pretty much leaves...... dB level.
...and their ears of course

 

[joegold]

I agree. But , I'll give Fractal the benefit of knowing great tone. I'm merely asking - at what volume do THEY decide which cab IR sounds best with each amp. I thought someone IN THE KNOW would post , but perhaps it's a trade secret.
No big deal. I can drop it.

My guess is that the people who program Factory Presets for Fractal use many different volume settings before they hit "Save".
I know I would.

But I hope you're not just using Factory Presets to evaluate the Axe.
By and large, they're not real good.

 

[1poorplayer]

My guess is that the people who program Factory Presets for Fractal use many different volume settings before they hit "Save".
I know I would.

But I hope you're not just using Factory Presets to evaluate the Axe.
By and large, they're not real good.

No. No I'm not. I'm here because I had bad experiences with line6. There's been a lot of guys who didn't like the Line6 tones , but loved Fractal , and with the introduction of the AX8 and quantum , I'm hoping I'll become a new fan. The samples have sounded good , and they seem like a pretty good bunch of guys , so here I am.

In the time I've spent mixing music , experience has made me believe that when people hear a song at moderate levels that sound good , they turn it up. If it sounds really good turned up , they listen. If it sounds worse when it's turned up, they turn the station , skip the track, ....

But you're right , they would ideally want to try to find a setting that sounds best at different volumes. I think it would be best to find the best settings at louder levels , but that's my opinion, partial from mixing in the past , like I stated above.
My 2 cents.