First impressions...

[eda123]

Hey all,

So psyched.

Ive been a big proponent of modelling, owned/played Line6 gear for 10 years at home (for late night headphone practice) and at church (direct to board). Ive been a tube amp user with bands Ive been in outside of church.. same story, been through dozens of amps and pedals.

Never thought I would need the Axe since Line6 gear covered me well enough for the areas I used it in, and my amp/pedal setup had me satisfied. Just didnt need to look elsewhere. Well the HD came out, I grabbed it right away, liked it- and started looking into the modelling forum over @ TGP. Saw the numerous comparisons of the HD to the Axe, got me looking... and reading.. and hitting youtube... and reading... bla bla bla.

So lets give it a spin I say, and if it doesnt blow me away, I return it. Easy.. lets see if this is good enough to cover home, church, and gigging. The ultimate in simplicity, consistency, portability or so I hope. So I went to GC and grabbed a K10 this weekend, and awaited my std with neutral expectations.

The Std arrived today and I have been playing it for the last 4 hours. Im absolutely FLOORED by this. I have not tried any editing- found MANY usable presets that will get me going and then some. I am looking forward to digging in more and more- so far this has me thinking there is no way you can pry this out of my hands in the trial period

Lovin it!!

 

[Scott Peterson]

Cool man - enjoy the journey!!

 

[s0c9]

Hey all,

So psyched.

Ive been a big proponent of modelling, owned/played Line6 gear for 10 years at home (for late night headphone practice) and at church (direct to board). Ive been a tube amp user with bands Ive been in outside of church.. same story, been through dozens of amps and pedals.

Never thought I would need the Axe since Line6 gear covered me well enough for the areas I used it in, and my amp/pedal setup had me satisfied. Just didnt need to look elsewhere. Well the HD came out, I grabbed it right away, liked it- and started looking into the modelling forum over @ TGP. Saw the numerous comparisons of the HD to the Axe, got me looking... and reading.. and hitting youtube... and reading... bla bla bla.

So lets give it a spin I say, and if it doesnt blow me away, I return it. Easy.. lets see if this is good enough to cover home, church, and gigging. The ultimate in simplicity, consistency, portability or so I hope. So I went to GC and grabbed a K10 this weekend, and awaited my std with neutral expectations.

The Std arrived today and I have been playing it for the last 4 hours. Im absolutely FLOORED by this. I have not tried any editing- found MANY usable presets that will get me going and then some. I am looking forward to digging in more and more- so far this has me thinking there is no way you can pry this out of my hands in the trial period

Lovin it!!

LOL - sounds like a duplicate of my journey...!! six months in and still blown away with it every day!!
Welcome aboard !

 

[shasha]

As for me, after I've had a fair chance of running the Axe through my Apogee rosetta to my DAW, (as there would be no point in even running it through any converter lower grade than that to get the signal into a DAW... something that is not common knowledge in alot of places it seems... lol). So after about a week of that now and tweaking, i would like to officially admit that I was erroneous in previously believing that a Pod or Pod HD was as high quality as the Axe-FX, or even close to it.

So thats on the record - but what some of the members (who were debating an honest inquirer) do not realize is that part of the reason for this previous behavior of mine was as follows - there is a fair number of members in here who were (and still are) trying to show the capability of the Axe vs other guitar modelers for recording in a DAW - but they are doing so by posting recordings done with the axe going through absolutely putrid converters. :? What the hell? No wonder I was so bloody confused at the time of deciding whether to risk the 2G on the Axe, or just go with a new Pod HD.

Because despite the fact that some clips I heard were million dollar quality, many others had a signal that I now can obviously conclude - was very poor fidelity due to the only possible explanation - that they were running the axe through horrible converters. So this made me very skeptical of the actual source of the pro sounding clips.

This is what guitar players with only amateur audio knowledge simply do not understand - the perspective of someone trying to have a pro quality sounding recording in their basement. So to those I say - what in gods name were you trying to prove by running a piece of gear like that with those low grade, lo-fidelity converters??? :shock:

There is clearly and obviously no point in even recording a piece of gear such as the Axe direct into a DAW if one does not use at the very least a dedicated higher end RME converter, or at least an entry level Apogee rack unit. So I am forced to now notify such parties, I have no choice but to tell them straight up that it is important to know that a low end converter actually degrades and thins out and dulls the axe-fx. Please Wake Up the the fact that you are only as good as your weakest link.

Therefore, when I was trying to argue that the Pod gave me a good enough metal sound (not aware of the capability of this "very very good 'Pod' called the AxeFX), such challenging parties with the Axe going through crap converters were displaying a level of bizarreness far surpassing even my previous belief. They were in essence using a space shuttle to try to race on a go kart track, not even realizing that they could not even get the craft onto the track! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I rest my case.

So basically what you are saying is that if someone uses cheap junk to record something that it's going to sound bad?

 

[Tone_Freak]

Well, not necessarily - Aphex makes two awesome preamps the 207 and 230 which sound as good as mic pres costing 3 times more, so its not always about the money.

But some of the axe fx clips I had to rely on for samples from members sounded very thin and were clearly recorded with stuff that sounded like entry level m-audio soundcards.

But now for my official review of the Axe FX Ultra - Final Score 8.3/10 -

Pros:
-Price - fully worth the money!
-Accurate simulations of analog amplifiers
-can come to within 99% accuracy in matching almost any of your favorite tones
-tons of routing flexibility
-every effect a guitarist could dream of
-FX awesome for warm vintage styles
-good for any style of music
-fat sounding amps and crunchy and high gain sounding amps

Cons:
-No Color, no character, no sonic signature (not necessarily a con because the amps perfectly modeled have lots of character)
-Effects just a bit too sterile

Sure its significantly better than the Line 6 stuff, and all other amp sims on the market - but whether it is on par with a an amp going through signal processing in a million dollar studio through million dollar gear - that is debatable. I am not sure. But I would value the Axe FX at about 3 thousand dollars. So the price at 2 grand is very good.

Alone with no other processing to beef it up, the unit is surprisingly good - but I dont think the unit is "in your face" as people hype it up to be in reviews. But I guess of course it is pro enough to be made huge sounding with brilliant skill in post processing and engineering and signal processing, possibly other outboarrd gear, etc... and I am sure EQs placed in the unit... and the multi band, etc... And please note, a software sim can be significantly improved with that kind of processing too.

But the EQs, compreessors, filters, and other processors in the unit are also very sterile - clean, but very very sterile and no signature character to them... but i guess this units main purpose is amps and modeling them well - so such amps have loads of character but it would be nice to have the additional layer of color as heard on many records with tons of Post... but i guess it would be unfair to expect that kind of color in a unit. But maybe thats just my bias expecting something massively colored from the get go like when I bought my access virus synth.

But I am missing my badly needed variac to change the distortion waveform.


\
But also, I was so used to the variac model in guitar rig that now I just can't express myself properly in the creative sound arts when the Variac model is missing. The Tube Bias adjustment is also whey too subtle... in real life, and in other simulators, the effect of altering a tube biasing is more pronounced.

But again, compared to the more than decent level of amp simulations, the effects in the Axe FX in comparision are a bit of a downfall as I went through every single preset - and this is through an apogee rosetta, so I had much higher expectations on the effects. Dont get me wrong, they do sound like very nice analog simulations, nice clear, they have the warmth of vintage gear- but the effects dont sound big enough in that gooey way - like i mean super hot goo like in Ghostbusters 2. So for effects and additional color - I would prefer to run this through an eventide because the Eventides are not only warm and crystal clear and have a hyper synthetic silky layer to them - which is their amazing character.

So in essence, Axe overall is missing its sonic signature. Although I give it a great job for simulating guitar amplification technology which in and of themselves are extremely colored as amps through their respective cabs. But the character of the unit when the effects are on is just a touch on the boring side. And the moog style low pass filter is a bit sterile too, but will do just fine for live usage - because live - anyone using one of these will sound whey better than any band who is with cabs miked up - in most venues. But there is the rare exception. (Although 9 times out of 10 i would not trust a sound guy with a mic in front of a cab since he might not know my cabs sweetspots).

But Fractal has got to work on a colored sonic character for the unit because otherwise the effects just are too sterile - so it should at least do so for the effects... but I think it should be that way for the simulation of amps too and the entire unit overall - - because people go to recording studios because of things like extremely colored U87 mics which are full of massive amounts of color - and API preamps, Neve consoles... certain room flavor types with different and shapes and woods - people want huge color and character on their CDs. So it would be nice if the Axe FX had its own sonic character and color too.

I bought an Access Virus synth for its rather dream-like diffuse character around the edges that can also get very dark sounding. I bought an Aphex preamp for its own fiery character. I had an eventide eclipse for its very surreal synthetic silky hyper smooth texture of a signature sound, I bought an Audio Technica 4047 for its warm top end and warmth but even more so its "vibe". So with the Axe FX - we are very lucky that the amps itmodels have their own colored vibe. But I have tt take this think into a major studio still for my album - or invest in stuff like waves or UAD cards to color up the signal of those amps even more.

Also, in the advanced amp edit parameters I think there should also be various other ways of getting rid of flub, and ways of changing the amps distortion waveform shape and definition. So far I know a variac does it, lacking in the unit - and tube biasing is supposed to do it... but in the Axe, changing tube bias settings do not change the waveform of the distortion - at least not ion the tonestack configurations I have tried so far.

 

[LMO]

If your evaluation was based on factory presets--that I understand were created with various earlier versions of the firmware--I think you have not really heard what the AxeFx sounds like today.

 

[Tone_Freak]

The firmware on my machine is the latest 10.03. Are you suggesting that those original created presets are still running on old firmware?

 

[Richard_G]

Because despite the fact that some clips I heard were million dollar quality, many others had a signal that I now can obviously conclude - was very poor fidelity due to the only possible explanation - that they were running the axe through horrible converters. So this made me very skeptical of the actual source of the pro sounding clips.

I'm not surprised you have been able to find clips that didn't impress you. But this isn't necessarily due to those people's converters. With something as complex as the Axe-FX, there are literally thousands of ways to screw up. On the other hand, it's the same complexity that separates this unit from the competitors and makes it possible to really nail what you are going for.

 

[yek]

but they are doing so by posting recordings done with the axe going through absolutely putrid converters (...)

Doesn't bother me. Most recordings aren't meant to be Pro stuff. Let alone when played through Youtube or whatever.
Your posts are all about having to use quite expensive gear and software. How about some playing?

 

[tgunn]

[quote="Tone_Freak":250olj9j]Because despite the fact that some clips I heard were million dollar quality, many others had a signal that I now can obviously conclude - was very poor fidelity due to the only possible explanation - that they were running the axe through horrible converters. So this made me very skeptical of the actual source of the pro sounding clips.

I'm not surprised you have been able to find clips that didn't impress you. But this isn't necessarily due to those people's converters. With something as complex as the Axe-FX, there are literally thousands of ways to screw up. On the other hand, it's the same complexity that separates this unit from the competitors and makes it possible to really nail what you are going for.[/quote:250olj9j]
+1 Of course converters are not the "only possible explanation". Preamps, levels, tone stack after conversion, codecs etc. Even cables.

 

[Richard_G]

And at the end of the day, it can also simply be a result of differing preferences

 

[Dutch]

The firmware on my machine is the latest 10.03. Are you suggesting that those original created presets are still running on old firmware?

No, just that they were made an tweaked at something like 8.01. They have not been optimized for 10.03. As such they might sound even better when optimized.

But there's so much variables in everything other than the Axe-FX from playing style/prowess/fingergeometry to strings to guitars to cables to other gear to monitoring methods to room acoustics to preferences and ear fatigue that making a preset sound the same (and equally good) to everyone is impossible.

 

[Tone_Freak]

Of course converters are not the "only possible explanation". Preamps, levels, tone stack after conversion, codecs etc. Even cables.

Can you please elaborate?

 

[tgunn]

Of course converters are not the "only possible explanation". Preamps, levels, tone stack after conversion, codecs etc. Even cables.

Can you please elaborate?

If a cable is bad, the sound is bad.
Using balanced vs unbalanced also matters.
If you've got a bad preamp (or don't know how to work it), the sound will deteriorate.
If your levels are too high or too low, quality will suffer.
When you export a mix from a DAW, it matters what you export it through.
If you're compressing that output even further via file compression such as mp3, the outcome will be worse than the original.
If you upload that mp3 to youtube and share it as a video, there's a good chance that the audio quality will suffer even further.

Common sense really.

 

[Tone_Freak]

If a cable is bad, the sound is bad.

I think my XLRs are good enough. Hosas - gold plated. Evidence cables going from guitar to input.

If you've got a bad preamp (or don't know how to work it), the sound will deteriorate.

Why would I run the axe through another pre? why not just straight to the apogee with XLRs? Still lost on "preamp", because the axe already acts as a preamp and my understanding was that the quality is good quality - not bad quality..

If your levels are too high or too low, quality will suffer.

Is there something more i need to know other than basic input gain structure and output at about -6db? I mean in between i understand that too low and then cranking up later raises the noise or noisefloor, and to high produces clipping/distortion. Or are you suggesting there is more to this?

When you export a mix from a DAW, it matters what you export it through.

are you talking about going out through D to A converters for outboard processing, and then back in again A to D? Uhh sure - apogee rosetta. I mean that should be fine, but i dont plan on any outboard sending like that.

If you're compressing that output even further via file compression such as mp3, the outcome will be worse than the original.

I use the many options on pro tools bounce/dither/convert etc to about a 192kbps format for that and no one can tell the difference from the original wavs unless they are monitoring in a million dollar studio.

If you upload that mp3 to youtube and share it as a video, there's a good chance that the audio quality will suffer even further.

This is not a concern since everyone shares the same disadvantage. But I thought there was now You tube HD as an option?

Common sense really.

It seems you are implying there is some common sense being overlooked here. Am I not following you?

 

[tgunn]

I was not referring to your exact situation but how some sound samples from the AxeFx might sound bad:

Because despite the fact that some clips I heard were million dollar quality, many others had a signal that I now can obviously conclude - was very poor fidelity due to the only possible explanation - that they were running the axe through horrible converters. So this made me very skeptical of the actual source of the pro sounding clips.

My point is that there are a number of factors that can contribute to poor fidelity. Not only bad converters.

As far as "preamp" goes, it's a term used for more things than guitar preamplifiers. E.g. a mic channel on a mixer has a preamp.

 

[Tone_Freak]

what about a sonic maximizer copy. Why was this not added?

 

[shasha]

Anything posted on the internet is going to sound pretty poor....ESPECIALLY if you are playing it through a good set of monitors and audio interface. I just upgraded all my stuff recently and I swear to God all of my MP3's that I've had on my PC for years suond horrible now. Not saying that my old stuff was junk; it was fairly well spec'd for high end consumer stuff a few years ago and for listening to music it was really nice. But for critical listening with a set of real monitors (and my stuff isn't high end by any stretch of the imagination) it was a bit of a shock to the system.

So I understand where you are coming from with the converters, but even if you use high end stuff as soon as it gets compressed to distribute you are going to lose a lot.

I will say one thing though; when you've got a good audio source it sounds amazing. That pretty much leaves CD's and the AxeFX unfortunately. :mrgreen: