EQ FOH (Again) - Big Show Tonight

D

damcka

New Member
HELP!

I have a big show tonight with my Bon Jovi tribute and need some EQ advice. This will be out second show, and maybe my 4th with the axe fx2..

At rehearsal my DIRECT Freidman BE tone is great. We rehearse loud and I've made high/low cuts in the cab block. I also have a PEQ block after the cab rolling off on some high/lows and also a slight mid boost. I'm dialling in at high volume, so all good, and sounds good.

I went to set up at the venue last night and had a few mins to hear my axe through the house PA.. Which is very very (very!) loud....

Now the high end is just too much. (It's not Bee in jam jar stuff, but its not my lovely sculpted tone). The house sound engineer said "it might sound too loud now, but once you get 300 people in here, they will absorb a lot of sound" (it's a relatively small venue and 300 is capacity).

So, I have couple of questions/comments i'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on.

1. I'm well aware that this is the fletcher Munson effect. However, I wondered... if the crowd will "absorb" much of the sound, and assuming this absorption results in a perceived decrease in volume, will the perceived highs then be tamed by this absorption?

2. Assuming the answer to Q1 is "no, that won't fix it. you're going to have to dial out that high end". I was going to compensate by rolling more highs off with global EQ. Is anyone else having to roll off "that much" high end
- keeping in mind that I've already cut in the cab block and PEQ already?

3. The prevailing advice seems to be to make your EQ look like a "frowning face". Obviously, that could look like different to a lot of people. Does anyone have a picture of how they set the Global EQ (or of you don't use this, then the PEQ or equivalent). I've drawn 4 examples in my picture (sorry I'm at work) to show various extremes of what I might try later. Which one of these is most like the option you guys take in a live setting?

Many thanks for everyone's help!
 

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A room packed with bodies will absorb significant volume. All those bodies will absorb more high end than low end, making the sound less bright.

How much of the highs will they absorb? That depends on the room. The house engineer should have a good idea of what that effect will be in his house. How bright your sound is in an empty room will depend not only on your direct tone, but also the room, the FOH speakers, and the processing the engineer uses at the board.

When trimming off high end, I prefer to use the HIGH CUT parameter in the amp block.
 
1.: The crowd will effectively absorb some of the highs and sounds reflections from walls, when it's quite packed. My Friedman BE preset sounds also much too bright during soundcheck, but fits quite nice into the mix later during the show. Depending on the Preset, I use the high and the low cut on the cab block. Low-Cut: 150-200 Hz (depends on preset) and 10 000 Hz High-Cut.

2. I use the global EQ only if I really don't like the overall with guitar sound of my major presets through the PA. I usually reduce the highs and mids, to make the sound less croaky/raspy (for distorted sounds). I usually do just minor adjustments here, to avoid scooped sounds, which would get lost in the mix.

3. Be sure not to overlay too many high- and low pass filters or Cuts (Cuts in cab block, PEQ, GEQ and ultimately the sound engineer at the FOH), since this results in higher attenuation beyond the corner frequencies and might result in a more sterile sound.

I set the high- and low cuts in the cab block to 6db/decade. Additionally our sound engineer also sets a high pass with a corner frequency between 100-200 Hz and an additional high cut.

In the end there's a point where you have to trust your sound engineer and leave the overall mixing to him. But I still try to make it sound comfortable for me on the In-Ear monitoring or on my own monitor box to enjoy playing the sounds and get the desired feel.
 
Were you listening to your guitar alone or with the band? This will also greatly effect your tone. If the foh man didn't act to concerned I think I would not dwell on it to much.
 
It's better to have some extra high end that the sound guy can trim off than having no energy there. The sound engineer cannot create something that's not there, but they can trim your sound to suit the venue and the band.

Give them a good sound and let them do their job :)
 
In the end you are subject to the sound tech. He might be boosting your highs and high mids. I have three different guys who have done sound for me a few times and they always add highs to my tone. I know it is them because I have played a few of those venue's with the same patch but different tech and it sounded closer to what I want to hear because I told them to leave my eq flat
 
In this case, it sounds like the soundguy has a good handle on things, so just leave it to him. He'll be the one out in the crowd listening, and if really does end up too bright, he can take care of it.
 
if it's too bright, it will just be the equivalent of a Marshall Stack, lol. That's not really a bad thing right? I wouldn't sweat it too much, just leave your eq up and adjust as you see fit at the beginning of the show.
 
FractalAudio said:
Let the soundman do his job.
Click to expand...
Scott Peterson said:
IMHO, let the soundman do the job of mixing FOH. If you have the tone nailed that inspires you on stage, your work is to play. The room mix is up to him.
Click to expand...
Could not agree more. The FOH person knows their house, how it reacts when there's people in there, and their sound system. More often than not, trying to override their suggestions will only lessen your performance (in the ears of those that it matters most, your audience).
Most gigs my band brings our own FOH guy. However, he works with the in-house FOH person as well, and we're all the better for it.
 
damcka said:
HELP!

I have a big show tonight with my Bon Jovi tribute and need some EQ advice. This will be out second show, and maybe my 4th with the axe fx2..

At rehearsal my DIRECT Freidman BE tone is great. We rehearse loud and I've made high/low cuts in the cab block. I also have a PEQ block after the cab rolling off on some high/lows and also a slight mid boost. I'm dialling in at high volume, so all good, and sounds good.

I went to set up at the venue last night and had a few mins to hear my axe through the house PA.. Which is very very (very!) loud....

Now the high end is just too much. (It's not Bee in jam jar stuff, but its not my lovely sculpted tone). The house sound engineer said "it might sound too loud now, but once you get 300 people in here, they will absorb a lot of sound" (it's a relatively small venue and 300 is capacity).

So, I have couple of questions/comments i'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on.

1. I'm well aware that this is the fletcher Munson effect. However, I wondered... if the crowd will "absorb" much of the sound, and assuming this absorption results in a perceived decrease in volume, will the perceived highs then be tamed by this absorption?

2. Assuming the answer to Q1 is "no, that won't fix it. you're going to have to dial out that high end". I was going to compensate by rolling more highs off with global EQ. Is anyone else having to roll off "that much" high end
- keeping in mind that I've already cut in the cab block and PEQ already?

3. The prevailing advice seems to be to make your EQ look like a "frowning face". Obviously, that could look like different to a lot of people. Does anyone have a picture of how they set the Global EQ (or of you don't use this, then the PEQ or equivalent). I've drawn 4 examples in my picture (sorry I'm at work) to show various extremes of what I might try later. Which one of these is most like the option you guys take in a live setting?

Many thanks for everyone's help!
Click to expand...

I didn't see you mention which FRFR monitor you use on stage to hear yourself?
If it's not really flat then there will be a wider discrepancy between what you hear and what the signal you send to FOH contains.
No house P.A. will ever be totally flat and any signal you send to him, no matter how perfect, will still need to be tweaked by him for his system.

And if you're using one of the Global EQs to tailor your on-stage monitor's tone then you should adjust the other Global EQ to match so that you're sending the FOH the same signal; you're sending to your own on-stage monitor(s).

After that, it's up to the soundman.
 
Don't mean this to sound rude at all, but given that your posting on a forum asking how to EQ for FOH and are confusing things like the Fletcher Munson effect with acoustic absorption coefficients for a packed house, I'd say leave the task to the sound guy who's job it is know this stuff and who knows the venue.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't a time a place to gain to knowledge regarding mixing live sound, but a day of the a gig isn't the time or place to start mucking about with it.

I should also add, don't want to piss the guy off. You walking up telling him how to adjust his mix could be viewed as insulting as if he came up and tried to tell you your playing 'Living on a Prayer" wrong. I've been buddies with lots of sound guys (most of which are real masters of their craft) but get on their bad side and they will bury you in the mix, just out of spite.
 
I agree , sound guys job but if your worried about what it sounds like out front, during rehearsal or sound check have someone play your guitar while your standing with sound guy and tweak the board to both your likings.
 
lqdsnddist said:
Don't mean this to sound rude at all, but given that your posting on a forum asking how to EQ for FOH and are confusing things like the Fletcher Munson effect with acoustic absorption coefficients for a packed house, I'd say leave the task to the sound guy who's job it is know this stuff and who knows the venue.
.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I did confuse FM effect with acoustic absorption coefficients. I clearly said that I had tweaked my patches in a loud band setting, but that the volume at the venue was much much louder still... there would therefore be a change in how my ears would hear different frequencies relative to the loudness of the source. I don't claim to know the physics underpinning the effect, but I do understand the practically (and yes I do understand that there are many more potentially contributing factors).

Anyway... thanks to everyone for the advice, thoughts, comments - all very much appreciated. Thank you.

The band had a great gig, and the sound from the axe was fantastic...
I just did what you all told me, which was to leave it the hell alone... Haha!

Thanks again guys.
 
Good to hear it went well! Trusting a sound guy can be a challenge; Lord knows there are plenty out there that apparently don't hear very well. But, I agree with the above advice - if it sounds good to you and you play well, that's the best you can do in most situations. Personally, I've come off stage after a rehearsal to have one sound guy tell me something about my tone that should change, and another sound guy tell me pretty much the exact opposite. So I've learned to not sweat it too much.
 
paranoid said:
If the foh man didn't act to concerned I think I would not dwell on it to much.
Click to expand...

Yep - if the FOH engineer didn't say to make any changes and wasn't concerned, then don't worry about it and let them make small adjustments as/when needed.
 
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