Election day.....

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funnypolymath, I'm the type of guy that just doesn't trust government very much, no matter who is in power. Just curious about your opinion on this...

The economy melted down...evil banks, Wall Street, boogeymen, et al, and the governmental agencies that were hired SPECIFICALLY to anticipate and protect our citizenry from exactly this sort of mess (oversight by skilled and experienced professionals in the field of macro economics and finance) appear to have been asleep at the switch. IMO, one thing that I was expecting to happen immediately, and while the Dems controlled both houses of congress and the presidency, was a serious inquisition into the mess, who screwed up, who was asleep at the switch, and the specific policies that lead to this financial catastrophe. Other than Bernie Madoff going to jail, I don't recall anything else of dramatic substance happening. Nobody's head rolled from the SEC, Fannie or Freddie, and nobody that I can think of was brought up on charges at the highest levels of Wall Street, found guilty and thrown in jail. Wall Street was the enemy, right? So why did nobody's ass fry? Why was there not a house cleaning at the highest levels of the bureaucracies who failed to predict the mess? Nobody was held accountable for this, that I know of.

Why is this? Don't you believe that the general population, citizens of ALL political stripes, would have welcomed the shedding of some serious daylight on the mess? Expose the problems, expose how we got from point A to B to C to D? And come up with a real, viable strategy for bipartisan common sense reform? (Dodd-Frank Bill? Puulease...) Toss a couple of sacrificial lambs in jail for 10 years in the process? Would this not have been a welcome "change" to business as usual in Washington DC, and an extremely populist thing to do? I mean, surely there must have been SOMEONE they could have scapegoated for all of this stuff, right?

Nope, instead we got Obamacare jammed down our throats, and told that the whole financial mess was the fault of the Republican party...when it demonstrably was not theirs and theirs alone to own.

So, in your opinion , why do you think this VITAL aspect of transparency and reform process seems to have never really happened. If it did, it certainly was not well-publicized, or could not have had very sharp teeth, otherwise someone would have screamed bloody murder...but...nothing...silence.

Just looking for opinions on this since IMO this is and has been the KEY issue of the last 4 years, but I don't really think the average person on the street knows any more about why things fell apart NOW than they did in 2008...and our "leaders" in Washington DC don't seem to be in much of a hurry to do anything about it other than insist that we keep printing money to tweak our economy rather than seeing an economy that is vibrant and healthy, especially AFTER having spent so many hundreds of billions of dollars in "stimulus". I mean, we could have this crappy lethargic economy WITHOUT all of the stimulus (translation - redistributive spending of the taxpayers' money).

Short version: we are now part of a corporate oligarchy, not a representative democracy. Obama hired the same schmucks to save the economy (Summers, geitner, Bernacke et. al) that crashed the thing in the first place. (EVERYONE should see the documentary on the financial meltdown Inside Job). Obama is part of the machine too (anyone who thinks this corporatist/centris is a commie or socialist is woefully unobservant and ignorant - he bailed Wall St. for god's Sake!).

I was one of those who, at least emotionally wanted to let all those Wall St. corps to fail - they gambled in the 'free market' - well, let' em lose all their dough when they gamble recklessly. But I admit I am not a macro-economist, so I can't really judge if that was a tenable option. I do strenuously object to all this 'free market' crap - from the Teapot Dome scandal in the 20's (or was it the teens; I forget!) to now, and probably even earlier, when the big players have been in danger of losing their shirts, we, the Sheeple, have bailed their sorry asses out. The only addition to this is now, for 20-30 years, the right has bitched about 'welfare queens' and kept racist proles fixated on that (and abortion and gay marriage) while they (the kleptocracy) pick their bloody pockets clean and send their kids off to die in wars that create more profits for weaponeers and reconstruction companies (bechtel, Halliburton etc.). The fix is in. It is UNCONSCIONABLE that the Obama admin did not embark on STRENUOUS prosecutions of these lying, stealing fat cats. But he knows who butters his bread. At the very least, he wouldn't have been re-elected. He might even have gotten a bullet in the head for his trouble.

The fact is, as long as lobbyists have unfettered access, as long as corporation have the same rights (but not the same moral framework and legal liabilities) as humans, as long as Citizen's United stands, as long as the Military-Industrial-Penal-Pharma-Energy-Minerals complex runs the media (increasingly concentrated into about SIX corporations, we will have a country heading more towards banana republic status. A third-world neo-serfdom. We are all chattel, resources, bought, sold, traded by transnational corporations.

So, the grand experiment of America has failed. not sure if it ever was real, or a fiction. We are pawns, and, apparently, the people running the show have a type of greed that is insatiable to the point that their own survival is threatened (Global Warning, Peak Oil etc.).

And yet, politician-whores like James Inhofe still take MILLIONS of payoffs from the energy industry. Their only requirement: make fun of global warming. Call it the 'greatest hoax in the history of mankind'. Interesting, given that the last thirty-odd months have ALL been warmer than the average for the 20th century.

This is kinda rushed, so probably a little disjointed (I am at work). But anyone interested can read my blog, samuelclaiborne.blogspot.com for more. And they can read three AMAZING books:

1) Addicted to war - MUST reading for Every American School age child

2)A People's History of the United States - Ditto

3) Ill Fares the Land

No one reads anymore. We do not know our history. Most Americans are NOT aware that virtually every war and conflict and skirmish we've engaged our military in, all sold to us as being about 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'liberty' have actualyl been about cheap labor and raw materials to feed the voracious maw of American Consumerism.

I am a capitalist - I work hard, own a house, believe in personal property. But this form of capitalism, what I call 'late-stage capitalism' is like a snake eating its own tale - it's greed is insatiable, and like a virus or a cancer killing a host, it seems unaware that it is depleting the very substances and systems that keep it alive.

Hope that helps.
 
During GW Bush's time, I had a huge feeling that the economy and real estate growth was so artificial and that there is a bubble going on. In addition, we have two wars going on. Then when Obama came in, freaking Europe started to crumble. Anybody foresee that? Point is, despite what Obama promised, this not going to be solved in 4-6 years, even if McCain won four years ago. We are such in a global economy that there are so much to consider due to the interconnectedness of everything. There are so many derivative instruments invented out there by Wall Street that speculators and Money Managers are able to manipulate the economy. There are a lot of things to fix but there are so much special interest out there. It doesn't help that the Republicans vowed to not work with President at all cost. I'm curious how this time around will pan out.

Also, there were no riots when Gore lost.
 
And who are these masses threatening riots? Probably the fevered nightmares of Matt Drudge, Bill O'Reilly, Sean hannity et. al. Absurd. No, no racist dog whistling here folks - move along.

Who 'rioted' in Florida during the Bush/Gore recount fiasco. (Hint: it was WHITE REPUBLICANS). Who froths DAILY about 'rebellion' and 'revolution' when they don't like the direction the country is heading in? Same jackasses, and Trump, who today called for a rebellion, said Obama lost the popular vote (he didn't), but was curiously quiet when Bush lost the popular vote.

I think you doth protest too much, This was a dog whistle, unfounded and unnecessary, and you know it.
Obviously you guys aren't sports fans. In Boston, people or ALL COLORS, have been known to "tear down the mutha" after the Red Sox win a World Series...or how about in Vancouver when the Bruins won the Stanley Cup?

And this is exactly what I'm talking about...this attitude has co-opted all common sense on the Left and contributes to the deterioration of the conversation and the division among us. And last time I checked, the Occupy Movement was a stellar example of what the Left will do when it doesn't get their way. So so typical...pick at any scab that upsets your hypersensitivity and then throw the racist bomb....give me a break!

Edit: the fact that people assume that because I mentioned "riots" that this automatically means that I must have specifically meant, for the lack of a more nuanced term "black urban riots" exposes your own narrow thinking, lack of historic knowledge, and exposes you as being closed-minded to say the least. I remember Vietnam and the riots then. Labor unions have rioted before and are famous for this stuff. Again, these are not "race specific". Because the President has black skin doesn't necessarily meant that only black people are capable of rioting, does it? Mindless, immature, and out of control zealots will do crazy things, regardless of the color of their skin. I was hoping that some of the forum members here would be intelligent enough and realistic enough to understand this. Evidently not.
 
I voted for Romney and here's why:
Our family's portion of the debt is now 300k (we have 4 kids) which seems like a perfectly reasonable number. I can have the money in a week.

Under Obama in 4 years it'll be like 360k. Now that's just CRAZY!!!

And where was your outrage when Bush was running the biggest deficit in history? Thought so....
 
But facts being what they are, and just because I don't mind going tit-for-tat, who rioted after the OJ Simpson trial and remember Rodney King? And ONCE AGAIN, there was a very well-known Michael Moore video where the actors literally did say "burn the mutha**** down." Correct? Just sayin...I think I've made my points..."doth protest too much"... pot meet kettle.

And this is why politics should not be allowed on this forum. over & out. I should know better. my bad.
 
But facts being what they are, and just because I don't mind going tit-for-tat, who rioted after the OJ Simpson trial and remember Rodney King? And ONCE AGAIN, there was a very well-known Michael Moore video where the actors literally did say "burn the mutha**** down." Correct? Just sayin...I think I've made my points..."doth protest too much"... pot meet kettle.

And this is why politics should not be allowed on this forum. over & out. I should know better. my bad.

LOL. Donald Trump is calling for a revolution!!! I think his hairpiece voted for Obama.
 
But facts being what they are, and just because I don't mind going tit-for-tat, who rioted after the OJ Simpson trial and remember Rodney King? And ONCE AGAIN, there was a very well-known Michael Moore video where the actors literally did say "burn the mutha**** down." Correct? Just sayin...I think I've made my points..."doth protest too much"... pot meet kettle.

And this is why politics should not be allowed on this forum. over & out. I should know better. my bad.

Rodney King, Not OJ, Yeah, a bunch of people brutalized and lynched by white authority throughout American history explode when a bunch of white cops get away with beating the crap out of a black guy even though they're CAUGHT ON VIDEO? Hardly the same circumstance. It was terrible. Innocent white people were killed merely because of the color of their skin. Obscene and horrible, but the intense anger (NOT the actions) was understandable.

I think it's a poor comparison to an election!!!

Not ONE person I know, nor any friends of friends on Facebook EVER made a remark about rioting if Obama lost.

But I apologize: I was (blissfully) unaware of the Michael Moore (moronic propagandistic agent provacateur) video.
 
And this is why politics should not be allowed on this forum.

Considering it is the one thing which affects everyone to some degree or other, I find it odd that there is a 'rule' in some places that you shouldn't discuss it
shrug.gif
 
I second stopping the political arguments on here. I agree people should speak and discuss but sh*t the election is over and lets keep this forum free of this stuff. I mean we all can agree we love Fractal's stuff, music and our countries. Agree to disagree cuz the other side seems to never change. My gf and my families are complete opposites and it really sucks during elections. Eventually the dust settles though and you have to move on. KEEP THE FRACTAL FORUM OUT OF IT haha.

Go play your guitars/basses what have you...
 
And at least we managed to avoid all of those nasty riots that were inevitable if Obama lost, so that's a good thing. (Note to the left...moderates and conservatives don't riot: they get up the next day and go to work.)

This is incredibly offensive, and you should be ashamed. You cannot hide from the nasty generalizations--racial, socio-economic, or otherwise--implicit in this statement, despite any protests or claims to attempted humor you've made since posting this. You knew exactly what you were posting, and you were called out on it. Your claim to hoping that forum members here "would be intelligent enough and realistic enough to understand this" is a laughably acerbic way of trying to extricate yourself from an embarrassing post.

And to address your ridiculous claim: I vote left. So does everyone else in my family and the majority of our friends. The morning after Bush won in 2004, we all got up the next day and went to very well paying jobs, thank you very much. See? I can make offensively elitist statements, too. Note to the right...your generalizations suck.
 
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I usually don't like to comment on this kind of stuff because, well, you know why, but we're all entitled to our opinion. I'm left, I work hard daily, I don't riot, I'm not on welfare, I'm white, I don't encourage entitlements and I'm not a minority or exception in the population that hold those values. And who says people would riot, Rush? In the context of your comment "people" rioting I find it has racial undertones. What's wrong in America: divisiveness. My $.02.

^this
 
I really enjoy reading the post from "senior members". Many of these post, (others too!) show knowledge, caring, and intellect. Cliff should be proud to have so many of this caliber in his customer base. I find it very refreshing to read many of these socio- economic and political postings.
 
I really enjoy reading the post from "senior members". Many of these post, (others too!) show knowledge, caring, and intellect. Cliff should be proud to have so many of this caliber in his customer base. I find it very refreshing to read many of these socio- economic and political postings.

Most of the guys here are pretty intelligent, I would say with confidence.
 
" I Got 99 Problems But Mitt Ain't One "

Happy camper here!!

I'm in Real Estate & make money regardless of who's in power. I just prefer Obama & didn't want him to be a 1 term Prez.

Hillary will win in 2016, and a completely revamped more inclusive Republican party can try again in 2024!!

Same here except I'm in software development. I like your optimism, always a good first step whatever the circumstance.
 
And an elitist to boot, I love it! Well, as one who apparently isn't intelligent enough on this forum, I'm ever grateful those early settlers 230+ plus years ago, who "didn't get their way", rioted and America was ultimately born. ;)
 
1. Hey I made a point, yeah well I made a different point, oh yeah well your guys a jerk, no your guys a jerk, you're a stupid head, no you're a stupid head.

Except for being a little bit more intellectual, this all seems so familiar.

Sorry, many of you made good points, but it just feels crappy when someone from one side makes accusations about what you stand for because they've generalized what your given political philosophy/party means for you personally. Its usually unintentional, but I think most of us don't like it.

2. Political party A stands for a,b,c,d yeah but political party B stands for not a, not b, not c, and not d. (It's just not that simple) Because you side with political party A then you believe all these things I despise. So unintentionally when I share/debate my views it seems like a little bit of that despising spills out on you.

3. Both political parties have views when taken to extremes I believe are indefensible.

4.a. I think it is extremely rare or never that we change anybody's opinion, except what they think of the person making the opposing statement. See outcome of#1 above.
4.b. The response we'd like is "Oh you're absolutely correct and I've been wrong and furthermore the politician you support is clearly a great guy and mine is totally evil" "I've seen the light, thank you for being so smart and posting your opinion.."

Let's remember that what we say about others beliefs can become offensive very easily.

That being said if I've offended anyone I apologize. Wasn't necessarily commenting on posts in this thread, just what generally goes on in internet forums. I think most of you are great folks that I want the best for, but I guess I'm trying to change people's beliefs also. Oh well.

aaaaah did I mention I love my AxeFxII
 
1. Hey I made a point, yeah well I made a different point, oh yeah well your guys a jerk, no your guys a jerk, you're a stupid head, no you're a stupid head.

Except for being a little bit more intellectual, this all seems so familiar.

Sorry, many of you made good points, but it just feels crappy when someone from one side makes accusations about what you stand for because they've generalized what your given political philosophy/party means for you personally. Its usually unintentional, but I think most of us don't like it.

2. Political party A stands for a,b,c,d yeah but political party B stands for not a, not b, not c, and not d. (It's just not that simple) Because you side with political party A then you believe all these things I despise. So unintentionally when I share/debate my views it seems like a little bit of that despising spills out on you.

3. Both political parties have views when taken to extremes I believe are indefensible.

4.a. I think it is extremely rare or never that we change anybody's opinion, except what they think of the person making the opposing statement. See outcome of#1 above.
4.b. The response we'd like is "Oh you're absolutely correct and I've been wrong and furthermore the politician you support is clearly a great guy and mine is totally evil" "I've seen the light, thank you for being so smart and posting your opinion.."

Let's remember that what we say about others beliefs can become offensive very easily.

That being said if I've offended anyone I apologize. Wasn't necessarily commenting on posts in this thread, just what generally goes on in internet forums. I think most of you are great folks that I want the best for, but I guess I'm trying to change people's beliefs also. Oh well.

aaaaah did I mention I love my AxeFxII

It is rare, but not unheard of for people to change their minds. A great example is the TV show, called, I think,30 days. In one episode, a VERY conservative VERY homophobic guy from Montana,I think, who was in the Army, agreed to live with a gay guy (or couple, I forget) in the uber-gay Castro district of San Francisco for 30 days. At the end of that time - despite a lot of ribbing from his family and friends, he said, very forcefully, that he respected these men and would be 'proud to have them in my unit, in battle'. I was VERY touched by this. Not that this should matter but: I am straight, with two lovely grown children, but I grew up with a lot of gay men and women, including my stepbrother, who died of AIDS in 1989.

When you choose to, or are forced to, live in another's shoes, that's where empathy is engendered, and empathy can lead to real changes in viewpoints.

My $0.02.

P.S. TWO AccuGroove Tri 112L's - whooeee, you are stylin'!
 
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