Dumbest question probably-Cab Mix & Mic selection

Stratman68

Stratman68

Axe-Master
OK-here goes-

The mic listed with IR's(Cab pack 10 for example) That is the mic(s) the IR was captured with-Correct?

So does selecting a mic in the cab block, is that like micing it twice, basically should you or shouldn't you?

Titled dumb for a reason but an answer would be great because I am serious, maybe I am over thinking it

Thanks
 
I just remember way back when RW was the "only" 3rd party IR dealer for us-pretty much. There was a post stating almost exactly this: "The red wirez IR's already have a mic, do not add another mic" That's not word for word but..........

That's why I asked. Oh well-Thanks Jollo.
@CK-not sure if you were totally joking or not.
 
Stratman68 said:
@CK-not sure if you were totally joking or not.
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Well I'm not 100% sure how those mic models work but I guess it's safe to say that it's not going to turn an IR shot with a different mic into a realistic version of what another mic would sound like in that same position. I'm not actually sure if any of the stock IRs are shot with a refence mic or if they ever were to begin with. So having those models in there is kind of like having an EQ curve that does "something". Different mics react differently to distances f.ex. if I have an IR that's shot with Royer R121 really close it will be brighter but a dynamic mic like the SM57 gets more bottom end when they're close because of proximity etc. so that would mean that you can not transform a mic signal into another mic signal with a preset without mic position information etc. right? Once again I don't know what those mic models do in the cab block but I would assume they're not very realistic. Doesn't mean that they don't sound good. :)

Once again it's just my opinion and I might be completely wrong as I have no idea how those mic models work.
 
The mic models have proximity settings too. Although that might just be EQ applied to the mic "IR".

I use the mic models to push an IR where I want it.

E.g. add the 121 mic model to push some low mids.
 
Thanks for the lift- yeah-turns out it wasn't such a dumb question. But I would feel better if someone would have said , No, don't do it.

But hey-I 'm not going to. I'll just go on with the assumption someone did say "Oh no don't do that"!
 
Rex said:
It's for IRs shot with a neutral mic.

Detailed amp modeling is also very Gen 1, but that doesn't make it a bad idea for Gen 2. :)
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Well that is exactly what I was referring to. Back in Gen 1 there were "neutral" IRs and those mic models kind of modeled different mics (not in a completely realistic way though right?) but nowadays most (if not all) of the IRs are shot with SM57s, R121s, M160s etc. so the mics are already baked in the IRs meaning that the IRs are not neutral. Doesn't that mean that using the mic models is not advisable?
 
According to the WIKI:

RW=Red Wirez IR, captured using a neutral microphone — OH=Ownhammer IR, captured with mics "baked in" — JM=Jay Mitchell's farfield IR, captured with a neutral microphone — Santiago=James Santiago IR, captured with mics "baked in" — Mix=Fractal Cab Pack IR, captured with mics "baked in" — TAF=TheAmpFactory IR, captured with mics "baked in" — CK=Clark Kent IR, captured with mics "baked in" — Others = original Fractal IRs, captured using a neutral microphone.

Cab: all models - Axe-Fx II Wiki

So on some of the cabs you can use the mic models on.
 
Clark Kent said:
Well that is exactly what I was referring to. Back in Gen 1 there were "neutral" IRs and those mic models kind of modeled different mics (not in a completely realistic way though right?) but nowadays most (if not all) of the IRs are shot with SM57s, R121s, M160s etc. so the mics are already baked in the IRs meaning that the IRs are not neutral. Doesn't that mean that using the mic models is not advisable?
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You might be overthinking this a little. Recent commercial cab releases have had Mics baked in, but many existing IRs don't. The next time someone releases a neutral-miked IR, we want the Axe to be able to handle it. I do, anyway. :)
 
Rex said:
You might be overthinking this a little. Recent commercial cab releases have had Mics baked in, but many existing IRs don't.
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Which was my point exactly. There's most likely a reason no one's shooting IRs with neutral mics anymore. :) Not even Cliff.

Rex said:
The next time someone releases a neutral-miked IR, we want the Axe to be able to handle it. I do, anyway. :)
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Once again before I say why I don't use those mic models I want to make it clear that I know people who use those mic models (f.ex. Misha Mansoor) and get amazing tones using them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use them. I'm just saying that you can not turn a neutral mic into an authentic version of another mic with a preset like that. IMO that's that is older modeling technology like Guitar Rig and Amplitube etc. but when we're talking about getting authentic/realistic tones I wouldn't use them personally.

Microphone position is probably even more imporant than the mic itself so let's say that you use a neutral microphone. Where do you place it so that it captures all the mic positions for all those mics? And when you choose a mic model do you think that it changes the microphone position also? Both of these are physically impossible. A Royer R121 would be placed pretty much dead center but backed off a bit. Shure SM57 most likely off axis. So I assume the mic models changes the EQ curve to another mic's EQ curve but it can not change the position of the mic which should be different depending on the speaker. The preset can not be "wise" and change the microphone position realistically.

I have a neutral measurement mic by the way so I can demonstrate this if you guys are interested. :)
 
Agreed: mic position is more important than the mic itself. And I get what you're saying about different positions for different mics. Maybe there's a stable of positions for a neutral mic that would cover most of the bases for a "flavored" mic. Maybe not. My experience capturing IRs isn't broad enough to make that call. At least the mic sims themselves (which may be quite accurate, depending on how they're modeled—you're basically capturing EQ instead of nonlinearities) should be retained for backwards compatibility.
 
Mr. Kent: your tests/demonstrations are ALWAYS appreciated.
The more tests you run and post for us to see, the better.
MANY forum members will ALWAYS be interested.

Mr. Stratman: as others have said, there's no reason to use the mic models anymore.
Except for the fact that Misha Mansoor gets astonishingly good tones with them.
Use them if you want, but they're not essential.
 
Wealth of information - More than expected, but that's ridiculous.... This is the FAS forum, best and most helpful om the web

Thanks Folks

I have printed out the whole thread for reference and learning
 
Let me add to this.

MANY pro artists I work with get great tone by doing things that people on threads like this one might call "stupid".

A guitar players in one of the biggest bands ever plays his Axe-Fx amps with cab sims on into a power amp and real guitar speaker.
People run effects in "wrong" order (Reverb before the amp? Scandalous!)
People use mic sims on cabs with mics built in.
People run parallel effects with mix at less than 100%

IF IT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU, DO IT.
 
Admin M@ said:
Let me add to this.

MANY pro artists I work with get great tone by doing things that people on threads like this one might call "stupid".

A guitar players in one of the biggest bands ever plays his Axe-Fx amps with cab sims on into a power amp and real guitar speaker.
People run effects in "wrong" order (Reverb before the amp? Scandalous!)
People use mic sims on cabs with mics built in.
People run parallel effects with mix at less than 100%

IF IT SOUNDS GOOD TO YOU, DO IT.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. +1! :)
 
This is all well and good but I still miss the neutral mic IRs. I have purchased all of these cab packs and they do sound good and are perfect for recording. However, I don't do a lot of recording anymore. Most of my time now is spent plugging in and playing like I would in front of an amp - no mics involved at all. I want to sound like the amp not the amp "in the mix". I used to almost always choose "None" for the mics in the Axe even before all of these baked in IRs came out. And, not that I can't find good IRs in the bunch, but a lot of the IRs are strongly colored by the mics. While I understand the desire to bake the mics in, I hope this doesn't become a recording only device. Please keep the "plug and play" guys, who don't use mics at all, in mind when creating future cab packs.

As a matter of fact, here's a request/challenge for Clark Kent (or anyone else) to produce a few good neutral IRs, preferably of Marshall cabs, but any will do. Actually, a whole cab pack of neutral mics would be nice but I'm realistic and will take whatever I can get. :)
 
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