Dry Track/Input 3 Clipping -

Miscreant

Miscreant

Inspired
Hi everyone,

I'm posting here as a last resort, as I've exhausted all the avenues to my knowledge, and have read numerous threads and the Axe Wiki without avail. Here's my issue: one, and only one of my guitars is clipping badly on the dry track.

Here's my setup:

1. The clipping guitar: LTD Viper 407, w. EMG 81-7/707 active pups.
2. The non-clipping/only slightly clipping guitar: LTD Viper 400, w. EMG 81/85 combo.

So clearly, there's something about the pups in the 407 that are over-driving something somewhere. I've put a fresh battery into the guitar.
It's worth noting that the 407 clips on both the neck and bridge pups, but particularly badly on the neck pup.

3. Axe Fx II via s/pdif to an RME Fireface 800.

4. DAW: Reaper

Some of the technical Axe Fx details: my Input 1 level is fine. I'm tickling the reds on my hardest hits, and with the 6db headroom there, I don't think that's causing my clipping. My Out 1 Clip also isn't lighting up at all. As for the relationship between the gain level in the Global setting menu and the levels in my patches, this is where I suspect things are getting interesting.

I've struggled to gainstage properly in my setup, since I'm dealing not only with the Axe, but also with my Fireface (and primarily because I'm relatively new to all of this). I've found that, for home recording levels, I've managed to get levels that are acceptable by turning my gain in the Global settings menu down to -8.90, as this has allowed me to keep the default level settings in most of the patches in the Axe, while at the same time keeping my levels in Fireface Mixer relatively normal looking, and without blasting my self away or clipping badly in my DAW. I've adjusted my own patches here and there, but this gain setting in the Global settings menu is doing most of the work viz. my volume levels.

Note that the levels in my DAW aren't indicating any clipping.

Now, I've increased the global gain to around 0db and, to compensate, have reduced the levels in a basic clean patch to determine whether the clipping from the 407 was coming from poor level setups in my patches--perhaps I was driving amps too hard. But that actually hasn't helped. The 407 is a bit quieter overall, but it's still clipping like crazy on the dry track.

Anyone here have any pointers? I've probably missed something, so I appreciate your help (and patience).
 
Start taking things out of the chain, does it clip when the guitar goes straight in to the RME.The recorded track is showing clipping right, not just playback?
 
I just plugged directly into the RME. The clipping isn't nearly as bad, but when I hit the strings hard, even with the levels on the RME way down, I'm still getting some distortion. Now--perhaps you could tell me--one cause of this might be my strings themselves: I'm tuned down quite low on a 7-string, and I get a fair bit of string/fret-buzz when I play. I'm not sure if the slight distortion I'm hearing when I hit my strings hard going directly into the RME is actually the buzzing of my strings.

Either way, yes, going direct into the RME considerably reduces the distortion/clipping sound.

As for your second question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'showing' clipping. All my meters--in the Axe, in the RME, and in my DAW--don't show clipping. But on playback I am hearing it particularly badly on the dry track I'm recording through input 3--using the Axe as my soundcard, not the RME.

Edit #1: one issue here is that it's not entirely clear that what I'm hearing is clipping/digital distortion. On the other hand, it's on the dry track that it's bad, and this is bypassing all the effects in the Axe, suggesting that it must be digital distortion/clipping, as the amp levels here have no bearing on the signal. But I can't for the life of me figure out where my signal is being over-driven, especially since none of my meters indicate anything.

It could be that this guitar is just too bassy, but whatever it is, I need to fix it b/c having proper dry tracks is crucial to re-amping in the future.

Edit #2: it's not string buzz. When I set my levels carefully when going direct into the RME, there's only slight overdrive when I hit the strings very hard, which I take to be normal.
 
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"As for your second question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'showing' clipping."

Generally you can see clipping (especially digital) in the waveform

Do you have a recording of this we can hear?

 
Sure, no problem. Here's a sample:



Edit: So that's a clip of the 407 tracked through input 3 from the Axe into Reaper. So it's a dry, unprocessed track.
 
*bump*

Any help on this one is greatly appreciated, as it's holding me up from recording tracks right now--don't want to record until I know my dry tracks are ready for re-amping if needed. Anyways, if anyone has run into this issue/has a lead on what's going wrong here, do let me know!
 
Did you try just playing through the Axe and listening through a pair of headphones? That would allow you to see if it's the string buzz or clipping... How low are you tuning anyways? Doing this might also rule out a problem with the axe FX.
 
Yeah, it sounds like you are clipping some where. again the key is to break down your signal chain. I'm not Sure what you mean by input 3? You said you were using S/PDIF, that only has 2 inputs/output.

1. Start with the guitar. Something could be wrong with the active pickups. Test on different devices.

2. guitar - axe-fx front input - headphones - test bypassing the unit (above tempo button)

3. Interface RME, monitor through headphones (no DAW running). Start with an analog connection to the axe-fx, then try S/PDIF.

4. DAW - make sure you are recording 46kHz/24 bit. does it happen when you use the Axe-fx USB as an interface.
 
Does your interface have an 'input trim' facility or a pad (-20dB)?

EDIT:

I just read another of your posts in more detail:

Miscreant said:
As for your second question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'showing' clipping. All my meters--in the Axe, in the RME, and in my DAW--don't show clipping. But on playback I am hearing it particularly badly on the dry track I'm recording through input 3--using the Axe as my soundcard, not the RME.
Click to expand...

If you aren't hearing this distortion when tracking, and you aren't seeing any clip indication in either of your interfaces AxeFXII/RME then you are getting this clipping from something in your DAW. If you are tracking with plugs, turn them off (they can ALWAYS go back on later). Gain staging is EVERYTHING in audio work. I've had more difficulty getting PUPs to even be heard through some devices than I've ever had them clip something, so I understand the puzzlement. So, with that said, turn-down the digital 'gain' in your wave editor's channel strip. There's a long running debate about tracking hot vs. cold, and the beauty of digital is that it truly doesn't matter - you aren't 'losing bits' and one has far more to lose in sonic fidelity by approaching digital clipping than they could ever stand to gain by preserving these 'precious' -0.00000001db bits.[/RANT]

:encouragement:
 
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Thanks for taking the time to reply, everyone. I followed the first piece of your advice, javajunkie, and tested the guitar apart from the Axe to try to isolate the problem. So I first ran it through the Axe and used headphones to monitor and hit the bypass switch to hear the unprocessed signal. The clipping was still there.

I then went direct into my RME and monitored with headphones. Clipping still present.

I then do both things with my other Viper--the six-string 400 with 81/85 combo. No clipping.

So it's the guitar, or more to the point, the pups. Odd, as this guitar is about 7 years old and I've never had this problem. And, as I said above, there's a fresh battery in it. So I'm really not sure what this is all about, but at least I have a better idea what's causing the problem. Thanks for your guys' help.

If you have any idea about what's going on with the pups, do let me know.
 
The PUPs might be rattling around in their cavity.

Before you monkey with the PUPs, and subsequently their height, make repeatable measurements of their height relative to a fixed part of the guitar (the plastic ring is usually a safe bet). If the PUPs are indeed rattling, place a little piece of foam under them (so the foam compresses a little bit in order to resist some movement of the PUPs a.k.a. dampen them). It may be as simple as tightening something, but be mindful that the center screws are the height adjustment screws.
 
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