Drive blocks for dirt? Amp block? Both?

[Jipps0525]

I've always used a couple of overdrives in my signal, even before digital. It'll usually be a Timmy plus something else in front of that as the Timmy makes it easy to adjust the shape of the EQ.

On the FM3, I've put an amp boost on a switch for "more". Sometimes, I may not want to switch scenes to one with higher gain but want a little more punch and level. The amp boosts work great for that and don't take up a block.

Back on topic....
I've now made three other varieties of my main preset to try at rehearsal tomorrow. Dirty Shirley/Wrecker Express/Super Reverb. All seem to accomplish the original intention of having an amp that cleans up well using the guitar's volume knob. (the SR, not so much). However, the cleans out of any of these amps aren't perfect for the Fendery clean I like for some tunes. Once I figure out which of these varieties works best, I may put a Band Commander on one channel for that.

Ive been liking a band commander with a suhr riot for distortion lately

 

[Jipps0525]

There’s a reason pedal drives are often marketed as “amp-like.” With digital we’re not limited by volume or to the “pedals into clean amp” paradigm, so unless you really like the sound of pedal drive or huge wet effects into the front of an amp I don’t see another reason to leave the amps cleanish.

With that said, most of my presets do have a lower gain prince of tone drive as drive block 1A, which I’ll often use if cranking the amp is too much (using my amp drive switch, control switch 1). I also use drives for lead boosts (klon, TS, etc), and for more unique sounds like fuzzes.

I guess but it also allows you try different flavors of distortion with clean or edge of breakup amp tone. Like i normally wouldnt use a distortion pedal with a hot marshall; i would use an overdrive just to push it a bit

 

[GitGuy513]

The point I was making was not what specific pedals to use or how to even get there, it was more about staging. Increasing levels of gain from clean’ish to full on distortion. Most of the players I like tend to use mild amp distortion, crunch (where you can clean up with guitar volume) and then use circuits with various boost to overdrive to increase the gain. The whole “amp like” description came from the advent of new op amp technology. Basically semiconductors “silicon” (especially back in the day) did not have a nice transition into distortion. Unlike tubes. With advent of FET and MOSFET technology the transition into distortion in much smoother and dynamic. Thus making it more “amp like”. The trick is not adding too much at a time IMO. Unless you want the super cascaded preamp amp distortion like the Mesa Rectifier and the like, then just use that amp or model and forget about nice cleans. FAS Modeling does change things up a bit because of all the tweaking you can do with the amp and control switch it, but the same concept does or can apply. Also, if I want spanking crystal clean sound I tend to use a different setup all together. Like a Roland JC120 and forget about distortion.

 

[GitGuy513]

Can you link a thread? be cool to read

This was probably 20 years ago or more. His website has some stuff about his setup now. He still does the gain staging thing, but it’s a bit different. As time has progressed pedals like the Fulton OCD can achieve much all in one pedal. Probably could search YouTube. I tried to find the article and had a hard time finding much of anything.

Edit:
Also, the main thing With Scott Henderson thing was those pedal were/are designed to do exactly what he was doing. So it didn’t change the “flavor” it just gave more of what he already had. As you will see on Xotic’s website their pedal selection has increased considerably since the late 90’s.

 

[GitGuy513]

Here’s a video where he’s getting into some of it, but when he says he doesn’t combine pedals the RC booster he’s referring to is his signature pedal that is like two previous pedals in one. Things are always changing.

 

[chrisjnyc]

I'm primarily using the stock Bassman preset for my sounds. If you look at that preset, the overdriven tone ("Cranked") is done adjusting the amp block settings and the solo tone adjusts the amp block setting further and adds a drive block.

While this preset does much of what I want...a preset is an example of the capabilities of the unit. What I'm wondering is whether folks tend to set up their FM3 amp as more of a pedal platform and use drive blocks for dirt ... do something like the Bassman preset is doing using amp block changes and adding a drive block ... or foregoing the drive blocks altogether and using varieties of gain with the amp block...or even different amps via channels.

Just looking for ideas / opinions.

I avoid using drive blocks when ever possible. I prefer to use the amp gain, aand the other amp options with control switches. Usually the only time I have a drive block is for a clean to mean type preset.

 

[Lance Holland]

I set up the FM3 with three options for rehearsal tonight: Train Wreck, Dirty Shirley, and Super Reverb. The Wreck and DS cleaned up the best but the band leader thought the Wreck killed it. Other then the few songs that use some effects, I did rehearsal on one scene. Boom - that is what I was looking for.

As an aside, I put the amp input sensitivity (Trim) on the per preset page to allow me to quickly adjust for my strat or PRS hollow body that has hot humbuckers. Super easy adjustment- strat at 1.00 and the PRS at 9pm (whatever value that was).

Anyway, big success tonight.

 

[Cam Heiliger]

I set up the FM3 with three options for rehearsal tonight: Train Wreck, Dirty Shirley, and Super Reverb. The Wreck and DS cleaned up the best but the band leader thought the Wreck killed it. Other then the few songs that use some effects, I did rehearsal on one scene. Boom - that is what I was looking for.

As an aside, I put the amp input sensitivity on the per preset page to allow me to quickly adjust for my strat or PRS hollow body that has hot humbuckers. Super easy adjustment- strat at 1.00 and the PRS at 9pm (whatever value that was).

Anyway, big success tonight.

Glad to hear you found what you were looking for and everyone was pleased with the results. Finding a solid starting point like that is a great feeling. Now you can experiment as much or as little as you wish moving forward. Congrats!

 

[Two Notes]

I'm a noob on FM3, so I can't provide much comment on amps to use, or drive blocks to put in the signal chain.

But last night I was watching some YouTube videos to try to learn FM3, and saw some by Rosh Roslin. I think there was one "FM3 Basics Episode 6: Gapless & Seamless Switching", this may give you some clues on how to adjust amp setting, to achieve different gain level sounds, and it also give some clues on how to use drive blocks with changes in amp gain settings. Of course, he is using amps and blocks to demonstrate a process, so probably not achieving the sound you are after, but it may help you to experiment using the amps you are interested in.

His videos are basic stuff, but still may be helpful.

 

[Gasp100]

I'm primarily using the stock Bassman preset for my sounds. If you look at that preset, the overdriven tone ("Cranked") is done adjusting the amp block settings and the solo tone adjusts the amp block setting further and adds a drive block.

While this preset does much of what I want...a preset is an example of the capabilities of the unit. What I'm wondering is whether folks tend to set up their FM3 amp as more of a pedal platform and use drive blocks for dirt ... do something like the Bassman preset is doing using amp block changes and adding a drive block ... or foregoing the drive blocks altogether and using varieties of gain with the amp block...or even different amps via channels.

Just looking for ideas / opinions.

Right now I mimic my real amp setup and use a Drive block with Blues OD for broken tones on Channel A and the Suhr Riot on Channel B for strong rock tones. The Amp is a clean Bandmaster, this is running into solid state power + cab and also FRFR. Compares favorably against my Dr. Z MAZ 18mkII which I run clean with a traditional pedalboard.
RIght now I'm just copying things so I have very similar tones using digital or traditional and find starting simple and comfortable is the way to go.

 

[Lance Holland]

Right now I mimic my real amp setup and use a Drive block with Blues OD for broken tones on Channel A and the Suhr Riot on Channel B for strong rock tones. The Amp is a clean Bandmaster, this is running into solid state power + cab and also FRFR. Compares favorably against my Dr. Z MAZ 18mkII which I run clean with a traditional pedalboard.
RIght now I'm just copying things so I have very similar tones using digital or traditional and find starting simple and comfortable is the way to go.

That was my approach before. I’m finding that using dirty amp that cleans up with the guitars volume knob is easier to dial in. The bandmaster has been a favorite of mine but it doesn’t clean up well.

We have our first gig on Wednesday where I’ll use the new approach and I’ll see whether it’s viable. If it doesn’t work, the adjacent patch is my bandmaster one with a couple of pedals. I will need to check the riot pedal out - that’s one I haven’t messed with

 

[Bill Arsenault]

I rely on the amp block for the majority of the sound, just as I do with my real amps. I don’t subscribe to the idea that the amp should be crystal clear and only provides volume and the pedals provide all the dirt and distortion. Before we had pedals we relied on the amp for volume and the distortion was a necessary evil because we couldn’t get the volume we wanted. Then we grew to associate that distortion with rock and roll, jazz, and country and it became a mainstay of the sound of the amps and every decent amp had to have a decent amount of distortion when rolled up.

Pedal makers initially wanted to augment that distortion, then, as amps got louder and people started turning down their amps, the makers began trying to reproduce the sound of the amps’ distortion because a big amp turned down lost that sound. At some point younger players assumed that’s how it should be, maybe because cheaper amps couldn’t get that sound, but the rigs shifted to clean amps with no defining character in their sound and big pedalboards with multiple distortion and dirt and overdrive pedals. (Perhaps it was because pedals are usually cheaper than the amps and the players didn’t know what to listen to in the sound to tell if it was a realistic reproduction of the distorting amp.) Whatever the cause, there was a shift.

Boutique amps, the real ones, not the ones that have “boutique” simply slapped on them by their marketing people, came about to reproduce the old style amp sound from the tubes, and then go beyond what the original circuits did. Being able to reliably reproduce the tube sound at lower volume was what got me to try, then buy, my first boutique … well, that and my tech who told me that trying to get a Fender to sound like a Tone King Imperial Mk II wasn’t going to happen and I needed to buy the Imperial. Having a 20 watt amp that can scream like an old JTM-45 Marshall on 10 is… invigorating… so I use my amp block just like my amp, it’s 99% of the sound and a pedal is just to occasionally push the sound a little harder or a different way.

And, even though I can imitate a full pedalboard with esoteric effects into a crystal clear amp that can switch to a screaming monster by stepping on a switch, I still prefer to crank the amp to 11 and rely on my guitar’s volume control to go from clean to full distortion. Perhaps one of these days I’ll wake up and quit putting a “clean” scene in my presets, because I never use them.

I would think that most of those who are using drive pedals with clean amp models are doing it because they are trying to be as authentic or faithful as possible when going for a tone that they like or that was initially created that way- like a Gilmour lead tone for instance.
Or there’s usually going to be specific rig-related functions they need or some other specific reason for them to go out of their way to use that method as opposed to just simply choosing an amp model that specializes in already having a tone with the amount and type of gain they are looking for.
I do not ever recall feeling pressured to subscribe to the idea that we should be using crystal clean amps in conjunction with pedals in order to get the very best possible drive tones that exist or because that’s just the proper way it is supposed to be done.

 

[olorin]

Bassman (or currently using the Mesa USA Pre Clean) as my clean tone, same cab, then 3 shades of dirt - Super OD with very slight drive, and then 2 other tones which are the Rat drive boosted by the VS9. One Rat is a little dirtier than the other for my lead tone. Sustain for days, even with my Tele. Zero gap and sounds exactly like I want it to. I tried going the different amp routes but don’t like the gap for live playing.