Drive blocks for dirt? Amp block? Both?

Lance Holland said:
Maybe I'm just using the wrong amp in the FM3? I like Fenders and Marshalls and our material varies from pop to rock so I need something that works for both.
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There are so many great sounding amps in the modelers that you’re sure to find something. And, as for going from clean to distortion in a single amp from the guitar, then I think the Marshall derivatives are good starting points. They can sound very clean when rolled back, especially if the guitar has a treble-bleed installed. The Dumble-type amps work really well too. Otherwise it’s no big deal to use multiple amps in a preset since we can switch between four different channels.

I have a preset that I like that used to Deluxe Reverb as it’s starting point, with both a JM45 and a Tweed amp in two other channels as lead sounds. I set the lead amps to use the same power amp settings as the Deluxe, so they sound more like two extremes of my Imperial’s lead channel, and how I play and set my guitar gives me in-between sounds. Similarly, I have a Mesa Lonestar Special as my other tube amp, and built a preset around its sound, that cleans up very nicely or gets plenty dirty.

In both cases it took a while to find cab blocks that reproduced the sound of the real amps well. The right cab can make or break the sound.
 
Lance Holland said:
And then then I start wondering if the FM3 isn't overkill as I'm using one amp (ok two). @laxu knows that I also have a BluGuitar Amp1 with a BluBox IR loader that can also be used direct to the mixer. At times that just seems to be an easier way to accomplish the same task. However, I'd need to pick up a few effects...and I like the MIDI automation that I've built around my iPad that selects patches/schenes which eliminates that setup you need to normally do prior to a song.
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To put you into a deeper rabbit hole, try running the FM3 amp models (or just fx) into the Amp 1's poweramp. It's a great poweramp to pair with modelers.
 
laxu said:
To put you into a deeper rabbit hole, try running the FM3 amp models (or just fx) into the Amp 1's poweramp. It's a great poweramp to pair with modelers.
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Head explodes! I have never tried that.

But then we are trying to more or less silent stage. Fun but maybe not so useful.
 
I copied the Wrecked Express preset and have started messing with that. @laxu - I think you posted that elsewhere as an amp that cleans up well. It’s not as warm as my Friedman but much better than the Dirty Shirley patch. Maybe that train wreck amp and some EQ could get closer to the goal.
 
Lance Holland said:
Of all of my amps owned, probably the best gigging experience I have had is my Friedman Dirty Shirley mini sitting on top of an oversized 1x12. I could literally crank up that amp and get all the varieties of gain needed from the guitar's volume control. The preset on the Fractal sounds and behaves nothing like my tube Friedman.
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Why not adjust the preset? Just because it doesn't sound the same doesn't mean it can't.

There are 2 DS models in the Fractal... Maybe try the other one?

Are you using an IR similar to the speaker in your old cab? And are you accounting for the fact that the Fractal is modeling a mic'd cabinet versus one in the room? That's a very different sound.
 
unix-guy said:
Why not adjust the preset? Just because it doesn't sound the same doesn't mean it can't.

There are 2 DS models in the Fractal... Maybe try the other one?

Are you using an IR similar to the speaker in your old cab? And are you accounting for the fact that the Fractal is modeling a mic'd cabinet versus one in the room? That's a very different sound.
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Good points. Especially about the cabinet of the stock DS preset - I never bothered to examine what it was using.
I did try both of the DS presets but neither matched my amp’s dynamics…and sounded they sounded flabby/woffy. Which could have been the cabinet. I tried dialing out the undesirable tones on the amp but it may have been their choice in cabs.

I guess the point is that I need to be a lot more thorough in checking out the stock presets as whoever designed them wasn’t exactly consulting with me :)
 
I did some experimenting with the Dirty Shirley amp rather than the preset. It's better when used with the 4x12 Basketweave TC Mix cabinet to my ears. At least it sounds and behaves more like my amp when compared to the stock preset.

We have rehearsal this week and I've got a Trainwreck and the DS patches set up in almost identical adjacent patches. Both clean up nicely on the guitar's volume but the ultimate test is using these with the PA to hear how they work. I'll let the other guys be the judge...they're brutally honest.
 
I wrote about this in another thread but it is something you can try. Usually what happens when you cover a song live that has nice clean sounds and drive sounds it is hard to get them to play well in a live setting. Many times it is easier to use one amp that can clean up well. A good thing I do a lot is to use the Volume pedal where the heel is at Mostly clean and toe is my full gain sound. In louder band context or in the mix it might sound more natural this way and you can swoop your sound in and out as needed. I like the HBE FAT V1. It has all that Marshall goodness and cleans up well enough to be a good fit. The issue a lot of times is going from a twin to a Marshall live doesn’t always work so well because those amps operate in different spaces and so it can be tricky to get the balance correct. If you like to spend your time dialing in then dual amps work. But I usually don’t have that time so I like to pick an amp that will work.
 
Lance Holland said:
I did some experimenting with the Dirty Shirley amp rather than the preset. It's better when used with the 4x12 Basketweave TC Mix cabinet to my ears. At least it sounds and behaves more like my amp when compared to the stock preset.

We have rehearsal this week and I've got a Trainwreck and the DS patches set up in almost identical adjacent patches. Both clean up nicely on the guitar's volume but the ultimate test is using these with the PA to hear how they work. I'll let the other guys be the judge...they're brutally honest.
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The IR is a critical component to sound and feel - finding the right one for the right amp is a worthy endeavor. I always start the controls at stock settings and audition options until I find one that is "almost there". Then I will make the necessary adjustments in the amp block. One thing to consider with the Dirty Shirley model is reducing the negative feedback in the power amp section. It will clear up some of the congestion in the lower mids that this amp is known for. I would also reduce the depth on the ideal page. It helps with the boominess. Friedman addressed this with the Twin Sister amp which has an adjustable depth control.

As far as the Trainwreck amps are concerned, I cannot recommend the FAS Wreck model highly enough. It is an idealized version of a Trainwreck and responds beautifully to guitar volume adjustments. Its also less fizzy/spitty. Definitely worth a try.
 
@Brucegregori - having it on a pedal is a decent idea. I prefer to do that with my guitar's volume knob as it's right there....and years of playing have created the habit of reaching for it. I'll check out the HBE FAT V1.

The amp choice is particularly tricky. We do modern pop covers (think Dua Lipa), Motown, and rock tunes so a lot of times so I've naturally gravitated toward classics like the bassman or something blackface.
 
Lance Holland said:
@Brucegregori - having it on a pedal is a decent idea. I prefer to do that with my guitar's volume knob as it's right there....and years of playing have created the habit of reaching for it. I'll check out the HBE FAT V1.

The amp choice is particularly tricky. We do modern pop covers (think Dua Lipa), Motown, and rock tunes so a lot of times so I've naturally gravitated toward classics like the bassman or something blackface.
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Gotcha. Maybe a super reverb with a drive in front then....more SRV like but not as aggressive as the HBE.
 
When I used real amps I had a hard time finding pedal drives that I liked better than amp drive, same with the FM3. However, I love boosts and the FM3 has those built into the Amp Block.
 
Will Chen said:
When I used real amps I had a hard time finding pedal drives that I liked better than amp drive, same with the FM3. However, I love boosts and the FM3 has those built into the Amp Block.
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Agreed. I used an MXR super badass for a while. It works pretty well in front of any clean amp. But still tricky to get it right. I find tube screamer types don't work well for me in front of a Fender style amps or Marshall style although cool....I seem to not click them on. The amp I used to love and that kind of fell into was the Mesa TC50. I really like Marshall sounds but more hot rodded. I like the SLO100 but it is so loud and I find the JCM2000 - which I don't like the gain maxed on and used something to push it. But for a while now I have been using a Victory and I feel that is the perfect compromise. The TC may still get a shot - but it is a lot bigger to carry and way louder too. The Victory set up seems to be a decent carry size, smaller package that sounds as big as a TC50 and a 4x12. Having said that, a lot of players love boxes to get their sound - JS, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert. Experimentation and then...more!
 
Greg Ferguson said:
There are so many great sounding amps in the modelers that you’re sure to find something. And, as for going from clean to distortion in a single amp from the guitar, then I think the Marshall derivatives are good starting points. They can sound very clean when rolled back, especially if the guitar has a treble-bleed installed. The Dumble-type amps work really well too. Otherwise it’s no big deal to use multiple amps in a preset since we can switch between four different channels.

I have a preset that I like that used to Deluxe Reverb as it’s starting point, with both a JM45 and a Tweed amp in two other channels as lead sounds. I set the lead amps to use the same power amp settings as the Deluxe, so they sound more like two extremes of my Imperial’s lead channel, and how I play and set my guitar gives me in-between sounds. Similarly, I have a Mesa Lonestar Special as my other tube amp, and built a preset around its sound, that cleans up very nicely or gets plenty dirty.

In both cases it took a while to find cab blocks that reproduced the sound of the real amps well. The right cab can make or break the sound.
Click to expand...
The tweed is a very good amp to get it all done....this model impresses me a lot.
 
Lance Holland said:
@Brucegregori - having it on a pedal is a decent idea. I prefer to do that with my guitar's volume knob as it's right there....and years of playing have created the habit of reaching for it. I'll check out the HBE FAT V1.

The amp choice is particularly tricky. We do modern pop covers (think Dua Lipa), Motown, and rock tunes so a lot of times so I've naturally gravitated toward classics like the bassman or something blackface.
Click to expand...

Im in the same boat as you that personally i find it a bit unpleasant sometimes to go from a super clean type amp to a blazing lead sound. One thing im experimenting with lately is a spanky/funky base tone (think play that funky music song tone) and using a distortion pedal to boost hard for blazing solos which blends well and also mid boost input drive for an in between. As of today i am experimenting with something else. For the above spanky tone, i use a Brit 800 model; its
Not completey clean just a sprinkle of bite to it. But i realized i can use the cleaner Brit 800 as my base and then use a control switch to change amp block or amp channel to the brit 800 #34 which is just a spicier version of the amp, but the character/nature of the tone is the same. Im trying this because i like having my expression pedal set to boost volume after the amp. So now i can have a control switch to change my amp channel or block, and use a drive block to get a different distorted sound
 
once I started setting amp at edge of breakup, the whole world of drives opened up for me big time. Suddenly, many drive models I didn't "get" / dismissed in the past, became usable + adding unique qualities.
 
sprint said:
once I started setting amp at edge of breakup, the whole world of drives opened up for me big time. Suddenly, many drive models I didn't "get" / dismissed in the past, became usable + adding unique qualities.
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+1 I started to really understand more about gain staging way back when Scott Henderson started talking about and using the Xotic AC, RC booster in tandem. and then came the EP boost and BB Preamp that I still own and use either in real life or on the FM3.
 
GitGuy513 said:
+1 I started to really understand more about gain staging way back when Scott Henderson started talking about and using the Xotic AC, RC booster in tandem. and then came the EP boost and BB Preamp that I still own and use either in real life or on the FM3.
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Can you link a thread? be cool to read
 
GitGuy513 said:
+1 I started to really understand more about gain staging way back when Scott Henderson started talking about and using the Xotic AC, RC booster in tandem. and then came the EP boost and BB Preamp that I still own and use either in real life or on the FM3.
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I've always used a couple of overdrives in my signal, even before digital. It'll usually be a Timmy plus something else in front of that as the Timmy makes it easy to adjust the shape of the EQ.

On the FM3, I've put an amp boost on a switch for "more". Sometimes, I may not want to switch scenes to one with higher gain but want a little more punch and level. The amp boosts work great for that and don't take up a block.

Back on topic....
I've now made three other varieties of my main preset to try at rehearsal tomorrow. Dirty Shirley/Wrecker Express/Super Reverb. All seem to accomplish the original intention of having an amp that cleans up well using the guitar's volume knob. (the SR, not so much). However, the cleans out of any of these amps aren't perfect for the Fendery clean I like for some tunes. Once I figure out which of these varieties works best, I may put a Band Commander on one channel for that.
 
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