Doubler vs Enhancer

S

snapper432

Member
I prefer a doubler over a stereo enhancer for live use (gets closer to that double tracked guitar sound). I’ve gotten decent results using a delay block in front of a stereo cab. Anyone else have any ideas/workarounds? I would love a doubler effect in the future.
 
There are various Axe-FX presets available on the forum and Axechange which use pitch or chorus effects to create a pleasing stereo effect. That's not how a Mimiq or Kemper doubler work though. They use envelope triggered delays to emulate the sound of double tracked guitars. That's a more convincing way to do a doubler effect than a pitch/chorus effect.

Here's a preset that demonstrates the Mimiq technique. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get the delay cross fades to go to completion 100% of the time on the Axe-FX. And this preset only uses 2 delay times. To be a more convincing emulation of double tracking, it should have a larger variety of delay times, but I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to try to make this a more complete emulation of a Mimiq.

In any case, I think this illustrates that it isn't easy to replicate the sound of a Mimiq or Kemper doubler on the Axe-FX with the tools currently available, which supports the idea that it would be nice to have a new "doubler" block that more fully implements this capability.


 

Attachments

  • Doubler.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 86
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I also prefer Mimiq doubler set 100% wet with tightness knob @ noon on one side only before dual hard panned amps. Wish enhancer was closer to that effect. Closest I have come to duplicating it, but not really, is a 100% wet delay on one side only, before dual hard panned amps + delay time varying slowly via LFO between 20 and 30ms (bit like a chorus function but not).
 
The classic Enhancer mode is just a delay. It delay's one of the stereo channels by up to 20 ms IIRC. Enhancer is more of a stereo widening effect, not so much a doubler. I think a dedicated ADT/Doubler algorithm would be a nice addition for live use. When recording, just double track for real. It will pretty much always sound better.
 
GlennO said:
There are various Axe-FX presets available on the forum and Axechange which use pitch or chorus effects to create a pleasing stereo effect. That's not how a Mimiq or Kemper doubler work though. They use envelope triggered delays to emulate the sound of double tracked guitars. That's a more convincing way to do a doubler effect than a pitch/chorus effect.

Here's a preset that demonstrates the Mimiq technique. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get the delay cross fades to go to completion 100% of the time on the Axe-FX. And this preset only uses 2 delay times. To be a more convincing emulation of double tracking, it should have a larger variety of delay times, but I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to try to make this a more complete emulation of a Mimiq.

In any case, I think this illustrates that it isn't easy to replicate the sound of a Mimiq or Kemper doubler on the Axe-FX with the tools currently available, which supports the idea that it would be nice to have a new "doubler" block that more fully implements this capability.
Click to expand...

Definitely difficult to emulate on the AxeFX with the current toolset.

The biggest problem (I think) is getting the delays to change "un-noticably" so as to create the illusion of a second guitarist (through random timing). As it is, when you change the delay between notes, there is a glitchiness in the pitch (as you would expect when the delay time increases or decreases).

I tried to minimize this effect by adding a 3rd "constant" delay before the 2 "randomized" mimic delays with the idea of giving those delays a chance to change their delay time before getting hit with the new note. It's not perfect, but I think it is a step in the right direction.

In all, I have 6 possible delay times... 2 delays each modified by an LFO quantized to 3 (2x3 gets you 6 different delay values).
I also adde the ADSR threshold knob to the Performance page for ease of dialing in that level with your guitar.

Again, it's not perfect. But getting there.
 

Attachments

  • Doubler 2.syx
    48.2 KB · Views: 62
I really like the Modern setting on the Enhancer block, especially when using different amps/cabs pannend hard l/r.. Gives a nice widening effect without causing phase issues. I used to double track for decades but in my opinion that could sometimes (depending on the intensity of the parts) yield a “too busy” overall guitarsound, no matter how tight you played.
Another benefit I think is with the Enhancer it is much easier and “cleaner” to engage pre-dirt modulation like Flanger, Phaser or Wah.
Just my two cents, just yesterday I did a studio job where I had to “triple-track” for no apparent reason (as far as I could tell), but hey, the customer is always right…….
 
I use the dual delay block after the cab. Set one for 1ms and the other for 20. Then add a pitch block (I usually put mine in front of the delay), use dual detune on the pitch block, personally I like -12 and +12 but you can set those however you want, -4. +4... Mix the dual detune in as you want, mine is usually set at around 12-15, so not much.. if you want to make adjustments, adjust the mix of the detune, I think the quantized LFO suggestion would work well here, might not even have to quantize it. Since the main effect of actual doubled guitars is a chorus effect, having the mix of the pitch change should achieve the desired effect of making it appear the timing in the guitars is changing even though they are not and changing the mix of the dual detune will not add any weird delay shifting warbles. I am in the middle of a hurricane so I probably will not try this myself until Ian passes, but I think my doubled guitar was already pretty nice so using a controller on the detune pitch bock sounds like a good addition.
 
GlennO said:
There are various Axe-FX presets available on the forum and Axechange which use pitch or chorus effects to create a pleasing stereo effect. That's not how a Mimiq or Kemper doubler work though. They use envelope triggered delays to emulate the sound of double tracked guitars. That's a more convincing way to do a doubler effect than a pitch/chorus effect.

Here's a preset that demonstrates the Mimiq technique. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get the delay cross fades to go to completion 100% of the time on the Axe-FX. And this preset only uses 2 delay times. To be a more convincing emulation of double tracking, it should have a larger variety of delay times, but I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to try to make this a more complete emulation of a Mimiq.

In any case, I think this illustrates that it isn't easy to replicate the sound of a Mimiq or Kemper doubler on the Axe-FX with the tools currently available, which supports the idea that it would be nice to have a new "doubler" block that more fully implements this capability.


Click to expand...


Shaw said:
Definitely difficult to emulate on the AxeFX with the current toolset.

The biggest problem (I think) is getting the delays to change "un-noticably" so as to create the illusion of a second guitarist (through random timing). As it is, when you change the delay between notes, there is a glitchiness in the pitch (as you would expect when the delay time increases or decreases).

I tried to minimize this effect by adding a 3rd "constant" delay before the 2 "randomized" mimic delays with the idea of giving those delays a chance to change their delay time before getting hit with the new note. It's not perfect, but I think it is a step in the right direction.

In all, I have 6 possible delay times... 2 delays each modified by an LFO quantized to 3 (2x3 gets you 6 different delay values).
I also adde the ADSR threshold knob to the Performance page for ease of dialing in that level with your guitar.

Again, it's not perfect. But getting there.
Click to expand...
Afternoon, guys,

Was curious as to how the vol/pan and delay modifiers are configured. The VOL/PAN modifier and delay LFOs don't translate when one imports your .syx files...
 
bleujazz3 said:
Afternoon, guys,

Was curious as to how the vol/pan and delay modifiers are configured. The VOL/PAN modifier and delay LFOs don't translate when one imports your .syx files...
Click to expand...
By the way, what do you mean by "don't translate"? That doubler preset should import properly to an AxeFX or FM9.
 
GlennO said:
By the way, what do you mean by "don't translate"? That doubler preset should import properly to an AxeFX or FM9.
Click to expand...
No worries, if there were any modifiers, they would have needed assignment after the presets were imported. The .syx files from earlier posts in this threads didn't provide associated modifiers when imported, that's why it was mentioned. It may be that modifiers require assignment, I'm not sure myself.

Instead, for several of my presets, I used a 30 ms mono delay on one amp of a 2 amp rig, before the amp, which served a similar purpose of your doubler preset after the amps/cabs. They key would be to pan the amp signal L/R, if that is possible. Allow me to check my findings Sunday afternoon and report back then.

In separate select presets, a 2nd amp was added and a 30 ms. mono delay also added in front of one amp. Although it's not quite the same as a Mimiq or Kemper Doubler, it works in a likewise manner.

I like that you've got a decent doubler "copy" from which to refer to. Perhaps once one of my presets works correctly, I'll post a doubler preset of my own to share with you...
 
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bleujazz3 said:
No worries, if there were any modifiers, they would have needed assignment after the presets were imported. The .syx files from earlier posts in this threads didn't provide associated modifiers when imported, that's why it was mentioned. It may be that modifiers require assignment, I'm not sure myself.
Click to expand...
No, they wouldn't. Modifiers are saved as part of the presets.
 
bleujazz3 said:
No worries, if there were any modifiers, they would have needed assignment after the presets were imported. The .syx files from earlier posts in this threads didn't provide associated modifiers when imported, that's why it was mentioned. It may be that modifiers require assignment, I'm not sure myself.

Instead, for several of my presets, I used a 30 ms mono delay on one amp of a 2 amp rig, before the amp, which served a similar purpose of your doubler preset after the amps/cabs. They key would be to pan the amp signal L/R, if that is possible. Allow me to check my findings Sunday afternoon and report back then.

In separate select presets, a 2nd amp was added and a 30 ms. mono delay also added in front of one amp. Although it's not quite the same as a Mimiq or Kemper Doubler, it works in a likewise manner.

I like that you've got a decent doubler "copy" from which to refer to. Perhaps once one of my presets works correctly, I'll post a doubler preset of my own to share with you...
Click to expand...
Hmmm, that kind of misses the point of the preset I posted. The important thing it does is dynamically adjust the delay time in response to the onset of new notes. That's what makes it a doubler like a Mimiq, instead of simply a stereo pitch or delay or chorus effect.

As unix-guy says, you should be able to simply import the preset. No other adjustments should be necessary, unless you want to tune the envelope to taste.
 
unix-guy said:
No, they wouldn't. Modifiers are saved as part of the presets.
Click to expand...

GlennO said:
Hmmm, that kind of misses the point of the preset I posted. The important thing it does is dynamically adjust the delay time in response to the onset of new notes. That's what makes it a doubler like a Mimiq, instead of simply a stereo pitch or delay or chorus effect.

As unix-guy says, you should be able to simply import the preset. No other adjustments should be necessary, unless you want to tune the envelope to taste.
Click to expand...
Will check again. But not this evening.
 
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