Double-Tracking-Wall of Sound-Thread ?????

Valhallir

Valhallir

Power User
Vendor
Hi, Axemen out there!!!

First of all I want to say "Happy new Year" to all of you (a little late - I know).

What about a Thread about special "Tricks" in ADT (Artificial Double Tracking) and cheats for getting a "bigger" Livesound with the Axe??
I tried several Tricks (different cabs in stereo, EQ, Reverb, bla bla bla) but I just didn't find "the holy grail".
For studio purposes I know (and this is what I also do for recording) that the best way to get a fat wall of sound is
"real" double-tracking. Nothing can beat that.

But for Live-Playin' I think with all the nuclear-driven-hyper-technology power of the axe fx it should be possible to
create something similar???
For Example: Maybe a delay with moving filters (similar like a pan delay) and thouch dynamics, that change by accident, modifiers that act in a "random" way to "cheat" the double tracking effect????

???

I know that there are several problems (mono/stereo compability, phase issues, terrorism, bad catering or ugly groupies) but in my opinion this just "feels" like an issue, that isn't still fixed, because cliff is already working on something like a new space station/super amp, or world's peace....

Or a direct satellite connection to some LA-Studiocracks who would play everything just for money ??? lol.


I know that the "wall of sound" theme is a very old and heavy discussed topic ! But let's refresh that thang!!

Get the party started,

Andrew van der Funken!
 
The best way to do this IMO is to split the track to 100% left and right. I'd probably use a different cab on other sides so they'll sit better in mono. Then add a delay and chorus on the other side and leave the other side with just the cab. Then set the delay feedback to minimun and mix to full. Use an LFO controller on the time of the delay so it's sweeps between 7-14ms. This way it'll be a tad out of time with the other side. So it's doubling. The chorus should have mix on full too. Set to taste. The meaning is to change the tune slightly when compared to the other tone. VERY slightly though... you don't want to get that chorus sound.

Now listen to both sides on their own and they should sound like regular guitar tracks. Together they sound like two different takes.
 
Great, people! Thanks a lot.

I will give both suggestions a try and let you know about my experience with it.

There should be an effect called "randomizer" which changes the high frequencies and dynamics of an incoming signal by accident, just like a "plugin" ;-))

Or there are a few suggestions for alternative names:

Cliff'o'matic
Scott'o'tronic
Clark'enizer
Yek'o'breezer
Jay'o'meter
.... and so on....

(If something like this is already existing, shame on me... but I don't think so.)

You guys really keep the thing rollin'. Although the axe is absolutely wonderful - this forum and the "Big Tone Guys"
like you make this whole axe-universe "priceless"

Axes up!!!

Andrew van der Funken from the Jodel-Country Austria.
 
Clark Kent said:
The best way to do this IMO is to split the track to 100% left and right. I'd probably use a different cab on other sides so they'll sit better in mono. Then add a delay and chorus on the other side and leave the other side with just the cab. Then set the delay feedback to minimun and mix to full. Use an LFO controller on the time of the delay so it's sweeps between 7-14ms. This way it'll be a tad out of time with the other side. So it's doubling. The chorus should have mix on full too. Set to taste. The meaning is to change the tune slightly when compared to the other tone. VERY slightly though... you don't want to get that chorus sound.

Now listen to both sides on their own and they should sound like regular guitar tracks. Together they sound like two different takes.
Click to expand...

Clark,

To avoid possible misunderstanding could you publish a screenshot of the Axe-Edit screen of the setup of your solution?

Thanks again! :mrgreen
 
The enhancer in the last slot works fine for me and I love it.

Look at http://www.online-coverband.de/audio.html, click on "Bed Of Roses ..." in the second block, than on the play button of the player. You can really hear the double tracking done only by the enhancer, it's 100% live, none overdubs, no fakes. Guitar was recorded strait from output 1 left/right of the Axe-Fx into the console. The Record is a 4 channel mix with a Zoom H4n - left/right from mixing console and the included mics.

Don't hit me, it's not perfect and it's true live :)
 
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Or just buy a T.C. Electronics 2290 and split the signal between the right and left 7ms. Works for John Petrucci and sounds great to me like a pillow was taken away from in front of the speakers. I now what your all going to say, that the enhancer does the same thing but I disagree. I use the enhancer and the 2290 and you would have to hear it yourself to believe it!
 
Hi brettlingle,

I tried to work with the enhancer, but I'm not convinced yet. It sounds a little "phasy" to me (but maybe there's no real way to imitate double tracking in real world. I also tried Clark Kent's suggestion, but without a screen shot it won't work out for me, I'm not getting it yet.

Don Petersen has posted a soundclip of the Fear Factory Demanufacture Tone and told, that he was working on some
Kind of double tracking feature, does anybody know if he succeeded?

If Don doesn't get that thang, I'm afraid that it won't work out anyway.
I haven't had this feature in the past with real amps - so it's not that real pity (but anyway kinda nice, if possible ;-)

Since I got my axe I have the best guitar sound and playing feel I EVER HAD - and I'm still learning from the people in this forum - so - some day - some guy - maybe me - will build something like a "ADT-Algorithm" (sounds sooo cool)

So, Don, If you read this, please make a short reply about your experience with your Double-tracking trial! Would be
a pleasure!

Up the Axes!

Andrew van der Funken
From Red-Bull-State
 
I'll try making a patch and posting it here. I just remembered that there was a problem with the LFO controller. The minimum delay time was like 30ms-50ms which can be heard as slapback so it won't work.

Is there something special in the 2290 7ms delay trick? What the difference between splitting the Axe-Fx signal into two and adding a delay of 7ms on the other side? It should be the same if the 2290 doesn't change the tone in any way...
 
I've had good results by just introducing a delay of 10-30ms to one side. This replicates the Haas effect, which will make just about anything sound thicker. No need for the LFO controller.
 
I'm using mono cabs panned L/R with a little delay. I was using the enhancer, but have cut back on that now. I use a dark cab such as the 4x12 30W with the 121 on one side for a foundation and a "color cab" with a 57 on the other side for the specific patch tone.

If you are using a mod like chorus or flange, remember to set the LFO phase to something other than 0 degrees. It comes set to zero by default to avoid phasing the mono users. In stereo, setting the LFO phase to a higher number really opens up the effect.

For some reason when I reversed the phase in the delay block it really opened up the sound too.

JWW
 
Clark Kent, I don't know the technicalities of why the 2290 sounds better I just know that it does. I have tried to do the same thing in the Axe but to me it just doesn't sound as good.
 
An LFO with lower available settings would really add a bit of movement to the delay in this context, I reckon this will be the winner! Heres hoping for the next update...I've been hoping for a while :)

A selectable randomness in LFO sweep time would potentially add a bit more too...and I am sure would be useful for a few other things.
 
Using either a TC 2290 or Eventide delay block or even the less colored Axe delay block for that matter - to simulate a double track by going somewhere between 4-15 ms on the delay at a low level, one repeat, (but rather low on the dry/wet so it does not sound too flangey/phasey) is a cool effect but not the same sound as real double tracking which cannot be done except by playing multiple takes for real.

As for the Demanufacture comment above, if those same mids could be used but with the distortion used of the album after that, then it would be the ultimate tone. And Obsolete was not double tracked, only single tracked per stereo channel - because they wanted very defined distortion which would have become too messed up and dirty if they would have double tracked per channel. So,since its clearly and factually accurate that the same cab/speaker combination was used for both albums, (with crazy preamp mods and other mods to the amp for obsolete) I would say to focus on matching the mids off Demanufacture - But then try to achieve the nice symmetrical gain off obsolete (good luck with that).

[EDIT - actually the pitch modulation at fine and subtle settings that Don Petersen has going on is very cool and the closest thing I have seen to anyone simulating double tracked stuff].
 
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fwiw, the 2290 by default reverses the phase of one channel.
The same can be done with the Axe-Fx, of course; either in the delay block, and in the enhancer.
 
Or you can try to use 2 different amps / cabs / mic combinations on left / right. That's what i do on my patches
 
I don't have a patch for it since I'm feeling a bit lazy right now but basically this is it:

wallofnothing.jpg


Different cabs is not a must but will work better. 7ms delay with no repeats and panned right and mix on 100%. The upper cabinet is panned left. Then you can add a chorus on the right sound and have the mix on 100%!!! And just a very subtle chorus there will make it sound a bit more like a different take. Tweak to taste.
 
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