Don't skip essential steps.

Silly advice that may or may not be applicable for any given individual. I certainly don't think a beginner needs to go out and buy an Axe, but at the same time, I've pissed so much money away on crappy gear that I could of bought an Axe many times over. Axe wasn't an option at the time obviously, so not quite the same thing, but man, all those Zoom, Digitech etc mfx units I bought for a few hundred dollars a piece, only to get pennies on the dollar for them later added up.

Quite honestly, if one buys an Axe II, and then finds in 6 months that they really aren't into playing guitar they could sell everything and likely lose LESS money selling it all off than they would trying to sell some low end gear that has essentially zero resale value.

Modeling is pretty much the future of music, at least with regards to live performance. Tube amps, rare pedals etc are going to be studio only items more and more. Might as well embrace the future than try to force people to "learn" from the past.

For example, if someone wanted to start recording wouldn't we suggest a modern DAW system these days ? Would anyone suggest going out and getting a DAT, or 4 track etc ? Sure most of us learned on them, I still remember my Tascam fondly, but do I wish I could of had a modern DAW and all the power and features back in the day ? Heck yeah

Likewise, digital photography is now the norm, yet some people still argue people should learn shooting film. That makes zero sense to me, unless one wants to shoot film, which 99.9% of photographers don't these days.

If one wants a tube amp, then get a tube amp. If one can't really see themselves buying some tube amps, needs quiet practice etc, then why "learn" on something they don't want and likely wont use in the future ?

If the Axe checks off all the boxes, (other than price lol), and its how a new player likely expects they will be making music into the future, why not invest in the right tool (if not the best tool) for the job right away ?


Wise advice my dad gave me was whenever buying a tool, you'll never regret buying a quality tool, even if it cost more, because its always going to be a useful tool. He was more referring to things at the hardware store of course, but the Fractal is just that, a tool, and one that can provide years of musical enjoyment, producing fantastic tones, and doing nearly anything imaginable, and lets face it, great tones make playing guitar that much more enjoyable.
 
Everyone learns his own way, due to given circumstances. We all have different tools and different gear at disposal as well as different abilities to learn and different motivation.

Some of us can get a better sound out of a cheap and crappy guitar processor or using only plugins than most people can do with Axe FX. I don't see any analogy with starting with a cheap car before driving a Ferrari.

I've owned only a Marshall Valvestate in my life before going to the digital realm but after investing some time in learning about sound engineering and mixing, which Axe actually forced me to, now I can quickly dial in my friends real tube amps for them. Even my Boss GT-8 pedal sounds much better now.
 
don_joe said:
Everyone learns his own way, due to given circumstances. We all have different tools and different gear at disposal as well as different abilities to learn and different motivation.

Some of us can get a better sound out of a cheap and crappy guitar processor or using only plugins than most people can do with Axe FX. I don't see any analogy with starting with a cheap car before driving a Ferrari.

I've owned only a Marshall Valvestate in my life before going to the digital realm but after investing some time in learning about sound engineering and mixing, which Axe actually forced me to, now I can quickly dial in my friends real tube amps for them. Even my Boss GT-8 pedal sounds much better now.
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I used the Ferrari analogy because on top of being stick shift, the throttle is super sensitive due to the amount of power the car has under the hood. Is it possible to learn to drive in one? Absolutely, if you have the means to do so more power to you but that's not the point I'm trying to drive home. A lower end (not necessarily crappy but something low power, reliable, easy) car is going to be significantly more conducive to learning. When I learned how to drive I learned stick right out the gate, my dad taught me in his subaru (sti nonetheless) and that first week was hell, I thought I'd never learn it. Fast forward to buying my first car (the lower powered rs 2.5) and the difference was night and day. Hopefully my little tangent makes sense to the point I wanted to make haha
 
If your end goal is to drive a ferrari, starting with a yugo isn't going to help you that much. Starting with the Ferrari at a young age will help you tremendously when you reach peak age. The only reason not start with one is the cost. So if cost holds you back from the Axe Fx, that's one thing. But times are changing. So is how music is made.
 
TakaraGold said:
Some users have never turned on an amp, or stepped on a distortion pedal before.
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That is very unlikely. That is a very small percentage of Axe buyers if any. I think most of the Axe fx buyers have plenty of experience with other gear. Also other multi effects and modellers. I have never heard of anyone who bought the Axe fx as his first device.
 
Bodde said:
That is very unlikely. That is a very small percentage of Axe buyers if any. I think most of the Axe fx buyers have plenty of experience with other gear. Also other multi effects and modellers. I have never heard of anyone who bought the Axe fx as his first device.
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Even if so, what's the difference between hitting the switch on a physical FX pedal / amp, versus hitting the virtual switch in the Axe-Fx? Essentially, nothing.
 
Bodde said:
That is very unlikely. That is a very small percentage of Axe buyers if any. I think most of the Axe fx buyers have plenty of experience with other gear. Also other multi effects and modellers. I have never heard of anyone who bought the Axe fx as his first device.
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Its only unlikely because of the average age of many Fractal buyers. If your a 40 year old male who's been into playing guitar for 2/3rd's of your life, your obviously going to have had experience with stomp boxes, amps etc, because that is all there was back then. Guy who's been playing for a few years and just in his mid 20's may have known nothing but modelers, and a guy/kid who's starting out in 2016 very well may never experience a hardware amp.

Again, its just like photography. 50 year old guy probably shot film for a few decades. Guy who's in their 20's probably has never shot film, since photography has essentially been digital since they were old enough to shoot.

Times changes.

There is a whole generation who never will know things like VCR's, dial-up modems, landline phones, and maybe even amps and effects pedals outside the virtual world.
 
selta said:
Even if so, what's the difference between hitting the switch on a physical FX pedal / amp, versus hitting the virtual switch in the Axe-Fx? Essentially, nothing.
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I guess someone appreciates it more, when they had to save up their allowance for a few months to buy the said pedal they are stomping on. I suppose when one has nearly every virtual effect in the world you just take it for granted. LOL

In all seriousness, I remember thinking long and hard if I wanted a chorus or a flanger pedal. I couldn't afford both by any means, so I had to pick the one I'd get the most use out of. These days with my Axe, I can have 2 chorus and 2 flangers blocks, with X/Y switching, the ability to assign controllers to any parameter etc. Things have come a long ways from my humble boss BF-2 (which I picked over the CE-2 chorus)
 
I wish I would've started with a great amp. I've read posts from people who started with inferior gear and when they finally graduated to an Axe, the tone didn't match what they were used to, thus they were disappointed. Personally, I'd rather start with the best gear I can afford and spend time learning it than have to unlearn time spent with inferior gear. There may be some truth to the idea that because a beginner doesn't have much experience, they may not have as much appreciation for higher end gear. Nonetheless, I'd still rather become acclimated and learn using the best gear I can afford from the get-go. I've spent far less time chasing tone with quality gear. Some of that comes from experience, but I don't like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. At least with quality gear, you generally know where the blame lies if your tone sucks.
 
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TakaraGold said:
Hi guys,
I've been a fractalite for a little while now, and I've encountered myself with more and more similar posts on the forum as well as on the facebook pages. Same questions and doubts of new users are repeatedly being posted, and the conclusion is that some users are having their first gear experience with the AxeFxII (or AX8, XL, etc). Some users have never turned on an amp, or stepped on a distortion pedal before. No notions about eq'ing or what a gate is. I think it really complicates the process for these users, since they have no real clue on how to approach or create a tone. Not even talking about the vast amount of amps and fx available, since a guy that never switched on an amp before, probably doesn't know the difference between a MKII or a Plexi. There is also lack of interest in reading, hearing or watching info or learning material; which again, works against the new user. We live in a time of immediacy, where everybody wants things straight away. And it deviates people from the right or the true goal.
With all respect, and please take this with a grain of salt, it's good to do baby steps first. Get a simple piece gear and start learning, maybe an old pod or a small practice amp, maybe some hours using guitar-rig. I myself (I've avoided using myself as an example to avoid sounding pretentious or comparing) started with a 15w amp around 17 years ago. I borrowed gear for my first gigs, bought my first fx unit two years after, and like that I learned and grew into what I thought I needed. Used cheap fx, cheap strings and cheap guitars. Sold everything, got something a tad better. Built a nice pedalboard, played the hell out of it, sold it. Bought a modeller, learned a true lot, got to learn more about amp brands and what they offered. Learned more about recording, all through time and steps. Dreamed about an eventide unit, or a tc electronics rack unit, and time started catching up. The Axe came out and I rethought everything and started selling all my gear, while I started learning about the Axe, through music, videos and downloading the manual. I knew this was professional-grade gear, so it was a big step. Then when I finally sold most of my stuff and saved enough dough, I got on the waiting list and now everything is different. The culprit of this post is about not skipping essential steps in the music learning/playing voyage. Start with a cheap guitar, make mistakes, get something that sounds crappy, and understand why it sounds crappy. Then grow from it. Life is about contrast. Well that's what I was thinking, hope it is of some use for someone. Take care and keep playing guys!
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appreciate the effort here but its real tedious to take in info like this when its presented in one whole block please try to break it into smaller paragraphs thx
 
Wondering what the average age is of a fractal buyer?

I understand the OP. The fact is that you can never stop anyone from wanting to "learn on that Ferrari" if they have the means to do so.
The forums - and the web in general - has changed everyone lives making information abundant and accessible. If someone can start out with a good modeller - lucky them. For younger players starting out, it would be about having some discipline to learn the craft rather than just surfing sounds.

It is kind of strange thinking that newer player could may never experience the "amp in the room". It would be interesting to hear what ones reaction would be when trying out the real deal of the model they prefer. Maybe they would hate it.
 
GtrBob said:
It is kind of strange thinking that newer player could may never experience the "amp in the room". It would be interesting to hear what ones reaction would be when trying out the real deal of the model they prefer. Maybe they would hate it.
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It used to be that everyone knew the "amp in room" tone, and then when you mic'd or recorded them, they hated the tone. These days, more and more people might be used to the sound of a mic'd guitar amp, which modelers produce, and that is what people are used to, so they very well may not like the tone of a 4x12 slant cab at high volume, with V30's, for example.
 
Brownmatthall said:
I used the Ferrari analogy because on top of being stick shift, the throttle is super sensitive due to the amount of power the car has under the hood. Is it possible to learn to drive in one? Absolutely, if you have the means to do so more power to you but that's not the point I'm trying to drive home. A lower end (not necessarily crappy but something low power, reliable, easy) car is going to be significantly more conducive to learning. When I learned how to drive I learned stick right out the gate, my dad taught me in his subaru (sti nonetheless) and that first week was hell, I thought I'd never learn it. Fast forward to buying my first car (the lower powered rs 2.5) and the difference was night and day. Hopefully my little tangent makes sense to the point I wanted to make haha
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No, don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right when it comes to cars. I wanted to say that for me at least it helped having a top end modeler and processor to force me to learn the basics. We know what Axe FX is capable of, so if sh*t comes out, it's my user's fault. That's why I head to learn.

When I had a crappy pedal, I knew that's all it can give, so I didn't make some extra effort. Than you get used to it and that's it.
 
kgk said:
I think that what you're suggesting is that people should start with a SIMPLE system, figure it out, and then slowly add complexity, until they can actually understand a significant signal chain. Then, at that point, they would likely be able to tweak the Axe FX to construct a sound that they like, given their prior understanding of individual boxes, etc.

I suspect there are two major camps of Axe FX users: There are people who CAN construct tones (extreme examples are people like Moke, he seems to be able to copy any tone that he targets), and there are those who CAN'T [likely the great majority], and they use presets out of the box. I think that the first group likely evolved from the type of incremental education that you suggest, but I don't know. I can't fault the second group, as they just want to dial in a tone and play their guitar, and if they can afford an Axe FX, that's great.

My heroes for signal chains:

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Rig_Rundown_Living_Colours_Vernon_Reid_Doug_Wimbish
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I think there are more than 2 camps. I for example have never touched any of the stock presets. I create my own, BUT they are nowhere near what Moke creates. They are simple Amp to cab presets, but I think they sound really good, and they sound like recording the given amp. My analog setup is the same, Amp to cab, no FX with the exception of a wah and a vibe pedal. Therefore I utilize the Axe in the same way I utilize my Analog set up. Simple, down and dirty.
Having a ton of shite in your chain doesn't necessarily make your tone better, it's just how you get "your" tone. I get mine by keeping things simple.
 
Yup there's a lot of generalising going on here. Both "old guys" and "young guys" might've used a Strat and combo through-out their lives or a full blown rig with multiple amps and cabs and effects running in parallel etc. or in both cases there are those people who have always been able to use which ever amplification was offered at the venue/rental shop. I definitely don't agree that you have to know what bad modeling is to understand what good modeling is. I do realize that this thread has a good goal but "Don't skip essential steps" ... to do what? Enjoy the Axe-Fx or AX8? I think that's bad advice.

I think what people could and should do is start trusting the Axe-Fx. If you're having problems sounding good with the Axe-Fx then it's definitely user error. It's kind of sad psychologically speaking that when people find something difficult they can never admit that they're not good at it. It's always the gear's fault. Every time I hear someone say stuff like "I couldn't tweak out the digital sound of the Axe-Fx" etc. it literally makes me face palm. Having unlimited options doesn't mean that you should tweak all the options available to you.

The internet is a weird place. There are many people trying to come across as professionals when they might actually have no experience.
 
Another interesting thought that occurred to me is that I actually have learned MORE about tube amps, speaker types, mic placement etc with my Axe than I did in 2 decades of "the real thing".

I never knew what things like negative feedback and sag did/meant until I got the Axe, read Cliff's comments, and experiemented with the controls. It was all stuff that I didn't have the ability to go messing with on real amps, for fear of messing something up, or killing myself lol. Heck, the fact along I can freely turn up things like master volume anytime I want, and not be limited to noise levels, along goes a long ways towards understanding amps better. I had a JCM2204 back in the day, and I played at home, so usually the amp was trying to be set as quiet as possible, sounded awful, until I rehersaed or gigged and could crank it. Think how many 50 or 100 watt heads have been solds to teens who play only in their bedrooms.... wrong tools for the job

Likewise, I could never afford, didn't want the bother of trying different speakers, different mics etc. I'd buy a cab, and use the stock speakers. I had a SM57 for micing. That was what I had, it was all I knew. Now with IR's we can easily learn how different speakers sound, hear how different mics and placements sound totally different and such.

As I said, I think I honestly know and understand far more about how real world gear works, and how to tweak it, through using it virtually, than I did when I actually had the real thing.
 
Can appreciate where the OP is coming from... (it's somewhat cliche) but I started out with a borrowed Stella guitar (over 40 years ago). Another friend lent me a Les Paul jr about a year later. Another friend found some sort of old tube amp (not even a proper guitar amp) I could plug into to and get a fuzzy distorted sound... Not sure if I'm any better off having experienced the primitive, baby step route, however I can attest to possibly appreciating and distinguishing the finer things and technological advances just a bit more as a result.
Hmm...reminds me somewhat of the days when the slide rule was gradually being replaced by digital calculators in my math & engineering classes.
 
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