Don't skip essential steps.

TakaraGold

TakaraGold

Experienced
Hi guys,
I've been a fractalite for a little while now, and I've encountered myself with more and more similar posts on the forum as well as on the facebook pages. Same questions and doubts of new users are repeatedly being posted, and the conclusion is that some users are having their first gear experience with the AxeFxII (or AX8, XL, etc). Some users have never turned on an amp, or stepped on a distortion pedal before. No notions about eq'ing or what a gate is. I think it really complicates the process for these users, since they have no real clue on how to approach or create a tone. Not even talking about the vast amount of amps and fx available, since a guy that never switched on an amp before, probably doesn't know the difference between a MKII or a Plexi. There is also lack of interest in reading, hearing or watching info or learning material; which again, works against the new user. We live in a time of immediacy, where everybody wants things straight away. And it deviates people from the right or the true goal.
With all respect, and please take this with a grain of salt, it's good to do baby steps first. Get a simple piece gear and start learning, maybe an old pod or a small practice amp, maybe some hours using guitar-rig. I myself (I've avoided using myself as an example to avoid sounding pretentious or comparing) started with a 15w amp around 17 years ago. I borrowed gear for my first gigs, bought my first fx unit two years after, and like that I learned and grew into what I thought I needed. Used cheap fx, cheap strings and cheap guitars. Sold everything, got something a tad better. Built a nice pedalboard, played the hell out of it, sold it. Bought a modeller, learned a true lot, got to learn more about amp brands and what they offered. Learned more about recording, all through time and steps. Dreamed about an eventide unit, or a tc electronics rack unit, and time started catching up. The Axe came out and I rethought everything and started selling all my gear, while I started learning about the Axe, through music, videos and downloading the manual. I knew this was professional-grade gear, so it was a big step. Then when I finally sold most of my stuff and saved enough dough, I got on the waiting list and now everything is different. The culprit of this post is about not skipping essential steps in the music learning/playing voyage. Start with a cheap guitar, make mistakes, get something that sounds crappy, and understand why it sounds crappy. Then grow from it. Life is about contrast. Well that's what I was thinking, hope it is of some use for someone. Take care and keep playing guys!
 
I don't think buying crappy gear is a good first step. That being said even the nice gear I bought 30 years ago sounded crap because I did not know how to dial it and my ear was not developed. It's a quest that is never ending and you have to experience many things before you know what is good.
 
atquinn said:
I tend to disagree.
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Austin
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As do I. We all have to learn, and are going to run into similar questions as we progress. The Axe-Fx (and AX8) actually provide a better way for more people to get help:
1) Super easy to record. Just plug into a computer via USB, use something free like Reaper and record a quick take. Then we all can hear what you hear exactly.
2) Super easy to share settings - just upload the preset.
3) Very easy to experiment with a ton of different amps, cabs, and effects. While this part can be daunting, if a pragmatic, logical, approach is taken to trying these things out, it can be extremely rewarding.

Just because you (and I) went down a certain path, doesn't mean it is the right, or even the only, path available. If a brand new guitarist has the money to drop on a several thousand dollar guitar and a complete Axe-Fx II setup, I will not fault them one bit. The same steps can be taken with a Squire and a crappy "Package deal" amp, or a Les Paul and the Axe-Fx II. At least the person with the Gibson and FAS gear won't have to worry as much about setup and such, too.

With the internet being what it is today, it's super easy to learn, iterate, and get feedback on ones progress.

I would say, if anything, new players (actually, all players, but this is a can of worms to some) should get whatever gear they can afford, but also find a great local teacher to work with them on things as well.
 
selta said:
As do I. We all have to learn, and are going to run into similar questions as we progress. The Axe-Fx (and AX8) actually provide a better way for more people to get help:
1) Super easy to record. Just plug into a computer via USB, use something free like Reaper and record a quick take. Then we all can hear what you hear exactly.
2) Super easy to share settings - just upload the preset.
3) Very easy to experiment with a ton of different amps, cabs, and effects. While this part can be daunting, if a pragmatic, logical, approach is taken to trying these things out, it can be extremely rewarding.

Just because you (and I) went down a certain path, doesn't mean it is the right, or even the only, path available. If a brand new guitarist has the money to drop on a several thousand dollar guitar and a complete Axe-Fx II setup, I will not fault them one bit. The same steps can be taken with a Squire and a crappy "Package deal" amp, or a Les Paul and the Axe-Fx II. At least the person with the Gibson and FAS gear won't have to worry as much about setup and such, too.

With the internet being what it is today, it's super easy to learn, iterate, and get feedback on ones progress.

I would say, if anything, new players (actually, all players, but this is a can of worms to some) should get whatever gear they can afford, but also find a great local teacher to work with them on things as well.
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This! Except the Gibson. I wouldn't recommend a Gibson to anyone. ;)
 
It is certainly possible to start in right with a top-end product like the Axe FX. Think about how quickly some young people pickup technology! We're here in part to learn from each other. If someone wants to know how dial in certain basic amp + cab tones, but struggles because they haven't had real world experience, there are plenty of people here who can assist and plenty of great demos to listen to.

But, and I think this is the point, those who have experience with other modelers, and even better, real traditional rigs, do have a unique insight as how to approach the Axe FX with all its potential complexity.
 
But sometimes we forget not everyone has experience with analog real world rigs, like us old timers. Some guys have only used modeling products. We as guitarist's tend to assume a lot.
 
Hey, one thing you youngsters can avoid is the problem of amp-in-the-room!!! lol

(In all seriousness, until I understood it, that kept me from being able to enjoy my Axe FX 100%... and I'm 41 now!)
 
Some get it, some don't. Not speaking particularly about crappy gear. But twisting a couple knobs on a real amp is shurely a good step. If your gear flunks out during a gig and need to use some other guys amp or something, better to know how to use it.
 
I think having familiarity with amps and pedals certainly helps the AxeFX experience. Knowing how, say, a Tube Screamer interacts with a Fender amp vs. a Marshall, gives you a good idea of how to build a patch in the AxeFX since those are modeled quite well in the unit itself. Otherwise, you're thrown into an embarrassment of riches where you're given a million choices, but don't know where to begin. The presets help with that to an extent, but it's better to know what you like and what you're looking for.
 
I completely get where you are coming from. The difference is some of us older folk have real world experience with the actual types of gear being modeled in the axe. But you need to think of it this way, the people who have never had experience with the real stuff aren't going into it with preconceived notions. They are able to take it all in at face value. As has been stated, they don't have the amp in the room thing to get over, they don't have the proverbial cork that needs to be sniffed. They don't have dreams of vintage dagnall or Drake transformers to compare to and "think" they hear a difference. So I think they MAY be better off.

Of course though, me, I think it helps me that I have used a real 80's JCM800, so I am familiar with how to get certain tones out of it. I have messed with modding amps, so I am familiar with what changing cathode resistor values does, and I can apply these things to the axe much easier. But how many great times am I missing out on because of my preconceived notions? In some instances I think many of us might have been better off before we knew what we know. Lol
 
Started playing in 94. Had crap gear (start without a truss rod lol) till 97 when I got an epiphone and a 65 watt Marshall valve state (which was shite) bought a Boss GT5 in 1999 and up until 2010 never even knew what a cabinet was or why sound would never come out of the cabinet jack in my Marshall. Found Addictive Drums and Guitar Rig then 5 years later I end up with an Axe FX.

Truth is there is so much to learn now that people are trying to do everything from building tones, to recording and releasing the final product. There will always be questions, some are just way more common than others and we can't hide the fact that at some point those questions just have to be answered. Pass that knowledge on I say.

Personally I was prepared for the long road and was in no rush to get where I will no doubt ultimately end up. I've got my whole life.
For any people thinking about buying an Axe Fx though just remember, it's an investment not a solution.
 
The OP is too generalized. Everyone is different. I started at 11 with a Sears guitar and amp. Saved for weeks to buy an EH Muff Fuzz. Saved for months to buy an Electric Mistress. While I have very fond memories of these early days, I would have gone for the Axe in a heartbeat.

Finally getting an Eventide DSP7000 and Orville was like finding nirvana. The more parameters, the better. But that's only me. I wouldn't extend my experience to say that everyone should start with the most powerful device, as it would make as little sense as the OP does for people like me. I get his point, and it is true for some, but not all. My crappy and limited gear frustrated the hell out of me.
 
I have to disagree also. I've been through every modeler out there, bought them all new. I would have loved to have started with the axe-FX II.
 
Do you give a 16 year old learning to drive a ferrari to do so on? Maybe you shouldn't start with "crappy" gear but I 100% support the notion that starting with something simple like an ac15/30 and a couple pedals will help you get a grasp on what it means to dial a (good) tone. You've got people who've been playing decades and have a head on this tone thing still succombing to option paralysis, someone new to the game doesn't stand a chance. IMHO anywho
 
It's all about one's learning style. The principle of starting with the basics can't be argued - how long you should spend absorbing/how much repetition is entirely dependent on the individual. I'm definitely the type that would have benefitted from owning actual tube amps and building signal paths prior to purchasing the AxeFX, but circumstances didn't allow for that, and I decided I'd rather keep it simple with the best modeling available, learning as I go. That's one awesome thing about the unit - it can be used to suit your needs, and if you change, it has the versatility to meet your changing needs.
 
Brownmatthall said:
Do you give a 16 year old learning to drive a ferrari to do so on? Maybe you shouldn't start with "crappy" gear but I 100% support the notion that starting with something simple like an ac15/30 and a couple pedals will help you get a grasp on what it means to dial a (good) tone. You've got people who've been playing decades and have a head on this tone thing still succombing to option paralysis, someone new to the game doesn't stand a chance. IMHO anywho
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I still can't really get behind that thinking.
What reason is there to not start simply in the Axe-Fx? Guitar -> Drive block -> Amp -> Cab -> Output. Limit to the first page of options and well, it's a very simplistic setup really. It also allows the user to learn at their own rate, on a massive variety of gear. Instead of having to replace their TS808 with a Rat, they can just pull up both models and A/B the two directly with very minimal effort.

Sure, it can be easy to get lost in the Axe-Fx, which is why I've advocated for a "newbie" mode in the past. A switch in Axe-Edit (or AX8-Edit) for a user to be "stuck" with a simplistic set of parameters to edit. At the same time, it's just as easy to make any "real" amp/cab/FX chain sound like crap, too (but you don't have built-in presets guiding you, nor the ability to simply reset to start over :p).

Even then, as a beginner you should have a teacher, who is not only teaching technique and repertoire, but also tone shaping and at least touching on effects.
 
I should probably qualify all of this that I've actually been using my Axe-Fx II with my students. Not just to open their eyes to the awesomeness that is Fractal, but to be able to quickly and easily show them differences in EQ, tones, different effects and so on. It's made lesson retention go WAY up in most cases, as the student now can "sound just like the album" without owning much beyond their bass, and using my presets :)
 
selta said:
I still can't really get behind that thinking.
What reason is there to not start simply in the Axe-Fx? Guitar -> Drive block -> Amp -> Cab -> Output. Limit to the first page of options and well, it's a very simplistic setup really. It also allows the user to learn at their own rate, on a massive variety of gear. Instead of having to replace their TS808 with a Rat, they can just pull up both models and A/B the two directly with very minimal effort.

Sure, it can be easy to get lost in the Axe-Fx, which is why I've advocated for a "newbie" mode in the past. A switch in Axe-Edit (or AX8-Edit) for a user to be "stuck" with a simplistic set of parameters to edit. At the same time, it's just as easy to make any "real" amp/cab/FX chain sound like crap, too.

Even then, as a beginner you should have a teacher, who is not only teaching technique and repertoire, but also tone shaping and at least touching on effects.
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I can get behind this thinking, but I guess I'm the kind of person that has to touch everything (always have been always will be haha). If I know it's there I wanna fiddle with it, I think it's a big reason I went for the box at all. I still think something simple yet versatile and rugged (partly why I said the ac combo) is gonna set you off in the right direction. You can gig with it, it does clean to mean, wonderful pedal platform, etc. The axe to gig is going to need a rack case, do you use a power amp into a real cab or FRFR? There's lots of personal taste decisions that can only come from experience and it does add up, on top of all the patch designing that comes with using it. I personally feel like its a large hurdle for someone new who just wants to play out yknow?
 
I once heard a Golfer tell me that:

"Everyone who starts playing the game should spend 6 months at the driving range, and not be allowed onto a course until they've done that"

Same concept. It's ridiculous to think that would or should happen.

For many people, Fractal products work out of the box, for others they do not. This community exists to serve a full range of the experience. However, if a user doesn't believe that this takes a certain amount of work, then maybe this is the wrong box for them. Even if you have someone set it up for you, you are screwed 5 days past doomsday if something goes wrong and you have no idea what's happening with your own rig.

This box has the capability for everyone, but it just does not set up itself...that creates problems for some. But excluding a rookie should never be an answer for someone who cares/wants to learn.

R
 
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