Does Matrix GT1000FX + Axe punch kick?

A Valve amp, rated at 100w, will give 100w CLEAN, and p to around 200W when pushed. You may even be getting 150w and it still APEARS to be clean to you - when in fact there is a small amount of compression and non-linearity. Its just this "distortion" (which is nonlinearity of the signal NOT clipping as such) cannot be heard.

A SS amp with a 500w rating (per channel - so generally rated at 1000w)needs to be operated well within this region - at least 3db (half power point) to allow for transient attack without clipping. Therefore the amp will probably be running at 250w ish most of the time. SS amps tend to be rated at 4 Ohms - and any deviation from this reduces the power - where as a valve amp will be used with a tap allowing full power to be developed regardless of the load. So if you run a 16 Ohm cab the valve amp is still probably pushing 150w or so when maxed against maybe 120w from the SS amp (every doubling of the load reduces the power by roughly 1/2).

on top of this all amps need a specified input strength to generate there max OP. if the tube amp is getting the required signal but the SS needs a hotter input (not unusual) then the SS amp wont even generate the 120w - so actually less than the valve amp by quite a bit.

Having said that - the speakers themselves dont care whether power is generated by SS or valve power - so IF yo can get the SPl (volume) from a given cab with a valve power amp - then y. It will give you a set SPL with a given power input. the trick is to match the power of the valve amp with the SS one - while taking into account the differing aspects i mention. So - to generate the same SPL as the valve amp you need to know the SS amps input sensitivity and its rating into what load. Then you give a 3db cushion 9so double the power) and thats what you need for YOUR cab to match the VOLUME of the valve amp. You cab will handle that power if it handles the valve amps power BUT you wont actually be pushing anywhere near the rated max OP of the SS amp.

This is still quite simplified - but is close enough.

So - example. You valve amp is rated at 50w, and your cab at 120w. In truth you Valve amp will (when turned up0 be giving 70-100W in truth. You cab handles that no problem, so take 100w as the Ss power you need. now - the SS amp needs a +4db input signal where as the valve amp is 0db - to get the SS amp to the same power level woth the same input you need an extra 4db on top. use 3db as a guide (its easier to work out) - so double the power = 200W. Assume your cab is 16 Ohm. The SS amp is rated into a 4 Ohm load - so you need to add 50% power for 8 Ohms, then another 50% for 16. So thats 300w for an 8 Ohm load and 450w for a 16. Finally - you need headroom of around 1.5-3db to allow the SS amp to operate well within its limits. Thats double the power (3db) giving 900w. in this case (which in truth is probably worse case) you need a SS amp rated at 900w per channel (or 1800w total) in order to get the same volume from your cab as the 50W valve amp - when everything is maxed to amplify cleanly.

This explains why people dont get the volume of a 50w valve amp from (for instance) a 300w per side rated SS amp. Note though - in my example - the actual power being presented to your cab is STILL only 100w - even though your using a 900w power amp.

In the case of the Matrix however its input sensitivity is 0db (so the same as most valve power amps) which negates that difference. its rated at 4 Ohms - so its 500w per channel will only give around 240w into 16 Ohms. You still need to allow 3db headroom - so to stay clean its actually pushing around 120w into your 16 Ohm cab - which a pair of V30s will handle. Compare that to a 50w valve power amp - it will be slightly louder. Its pushing between 20 and 50w more into the cab. Its only a little though as you need 10x the power for double the volume - and your not even getting double the power (which is around 1.4x the volume). Against a 100w valve amp it wont be as loud, but again not by a lot (same difference really - the valve amp will be 50w or so more) - which means the valve amp will appear around 1/5th top 1/4 louder.

Caution though - if you bridge the amp - your doubling the power output - AND thats rated into 8 Ohms - so your getting an extra 50% on top of that. so for the same input your now getting closer to 350w - considerable louder than the 100w valve amp let alone the 50w - BUT your V30s will not handle that power so will get damaged. A pair of EVs however will handle that as their rated at 200W each - so 400w for the pair.
 
thanks dude! that was a very thorough explanation and I think I have a much better grasp on it. However, I was able to try all this today and compare each poweramp with a hard hitting drummer and it unfortunately did not work out in favour of the matrix. I am sure it would be fine for gigging with monitors, but a full progressive metal band jamming/practicing at full volume it does not cut enough.

I tried exactly what you said to do and yes, the matrix was quieter than the atomic by a bit, but a bit too much unfortunately. I thought the matrix sounds REALLY good, but unfortunately I really need that extra perceived volume for my situation.

So my only option is higher powered speakers, or to stick with valve amps. Or get floor monitors so I can hear myself more...but no thanks.

I am going to try to borrow some EV's/Deltas or maybe purchase some and return them if need be, I would like to try to get the Matrix to work for me but so far it doesn't seem to be :(

EDIT: in retrospect, I don't think I did it right haha.

so I had the matrix in stereo, going into 2 16ohm cabs that have 125w worth of speakers each. I brought up global levels/patch levels until the output 2 red light on the axe was JUST starting to flicker, thinking that was as much as I could go. however when the matrix was cranked, and the output 2 knob on the axe was cranked, it was just making the matrix lights flicker - which from my understanding would only be 15w of power, correct?

so I need to go back into the axe fx, ignore the output 2 red light, and just crank the fx loop output level and output 2 level, until I am far past the lights on the matrix staying solid, correct?

sorry, this is all new to me so it is a little confusing.
 
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Into a 16 Ohm load, the Matrix will be giving around 220w fully pushed. the red light stars to flicker at -9db. Each 3db is half power so -3 would be 120w, -6 would be 60w and -9db would be about 25w. That was what you were hearing - around 25w RMS. Compared to the valve amp which could have been around 70-100w there will be a volume difference in favour of the valve amp.

I dont quite understand why the red light on the AFX was on. If it is your clipping the outputs. If your using the FX loop though you could raise the OP there yes. you can also go into global and raise the gain slider in the EQ page for OP 2. Id lower your patch OP level as well though as it looks like there too high - and you could clip something in your chain.

FWIW, I get the levels your talking about (with AFX full, and Matrix full - Matrix light flicking) with the global outs set at around -12db. I can get full OP of the Matrix with the gain set to -3db (but I have my amp block levels up quite high at times - certainly higher than most factory presets).

If you post a patch, Ill stick it in my AFX and play with the levels so they work with no clipping. Then I can let you know the levels (or re-post the changed patch) and you can control the level going to the Matrix via the global out gain.


** EDIT.

If you want to try a rough setting. Lower your patch levels (preferably by the level in the amp block - drop it by 3db to start with which should stop you AFX red led). Then go to the Global page for OP2. Raise the gain slider by 9db. Thats putting the 3db you removed from the amp block back - then adding 6db to your OP signal. With nothing else changed (and the AFX output and Matrix OP not moved) you would be getting 110-120ww. You would probably be fine at that - the V30s are rated at 120w combined and Celestion rate them very conservatively and they would take more in peaks. That said, i wouldnt set it up that high unless you need it because its getting near their limits - keeping the raise to 7/8 dbgives you a bd or too in reserve. At 7db You'd be getting around 70-75 Watts and at 8db around 100-105w (ish).
 
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awesome thanks so much for all this info and suggestions man!

So I did everything exactly as you had said, adjusted output 2 gain slider internally, and managed to get roughly the same perceived volume around 8db (100-105w) on the matrix with output 2 knob on full, as well as the matrix on full compared to the atomic on full as well. The lights were now staying solid as opposed to flickering.

The matrix could actually be pushed a bit more but I didn't want to risk damaging the speakers.

I must say it sounded damn near identical even on the exact same patch without tweaking. A little tweak and I got the matrix even closer to that openness and feel. There was still something missing but I am sure I can get 99% there. I would say I am at about 90-95% of the way there right now in tone/feel and the volume is there 100% so I am happy.

Off goes the Atomic. (though I must admit, I am reserving a Fryette LXII as I really want to try it out!)

Thanks for all your help!
 
I got my Matrix 1000 today. Trying to replace my Mosvalve 500 strictly due to weight. My Mosvalve has half the watts bridged and is about 40% louder than the matrix which supposedly has 1000 watts.
 
Read through my posts.

I dont have the specs of the Mosvalve, so cant give specifics of where to go. Ill try and find some info on it today.

The Matrix is 1000watts, not psudo watts like some. That is when bridged when it produces that into an 8 Ohms load. Single channel is 500w into a 4 Ohm load. The signal lights are important if you want to gague what the amp is doing. Flickering on/off while playing is -9db, so around 65 watts single channel into a 4 Ohm load or 125w bridged into an 8 Ohm load. You need to know what rating you cab is (power and Ohms) to work out if you have room to go up and by how much. Just steady is -6db.
 
I have an 8ohm cab. My Mosvalve is 250 a side at 4 ohms and 500 bridged so it half the watts of the matrix but its probably 30% louder. The matrix at half power (noon),is about what my Mosvalve is at 9:00. Just seems odd my Mosvalve at half the watts is way louder. I just did an A/B on the two for about 2 hours tonight.
 
OK - found the manual and had a look.

TBH its a l;ittle confusing. Its 250w per channel stereo yet is rated at 380w for single channel oporation. It then says it can give another 2-3db of headroom before audible clipping so use speakers rated at more than 400w. That a really strange way of speccing the amp in truth. It should give its max OP before clipping - this doesnt it has headroom left. There also hooking the channels up internally when only one channel used to get more OP.

AAANyway that not really the issue - its just a little strange. If the amp performes as suggested it will give up to 380w + another 2/3db before clipping (wosre case) which is actually anywhere between 685 and 760w into a 4 Ohm load while the matrix is 500w. They both require the same input signal though (775mv) so at least thats negated.

Ultimately - given the Mosvalves strange spec methodology, Id expect the Mosvalve to give more power for the same given signal - so be slightly louder. As it could be producing half as much power again as the Matrix (i say could - we cant really tell from the specs) saying the mosvalve is 40% louder than the Matrix is possible.

If you were driving two channels though into 2 cabs, things are reversed. In that case the Mosvalve is much more specific. Its 250w per channel against the Matrix 500w. Run this was the Matrix should be louder.

The Mosvavle is running in Class A mode against the Matrix Class A/B so both should sound very nice. Im guessing the only real difference between the two amps is actually going to be form factor and weight (Mosvalve is 2u 30lb, the Matrix 1U 9lb). Everything else would be personal I guess here.
 
Directly from the Manual:

OUTPUT POWER — 500 Watts RMS at 4 Ohms (250 watts per channel, both channels driven),
380 Watts RMS at 4 ohms one channel driven

And:

It is often advisable to use only one channel for mono (for example, if you have only one speaker cabinet),
as the MosValve can produce over 400 Watts with only one channel driven.

Also - once the clip lights come on:

Note: MosValve circuitry allows an additional 2 - 3 dB of usable head
room above traditional clipping before becoming noticeably distorted
 
Cant edit from work.

From those quotes, It would appear (as I said earlier) the amp is rated at 380w single channel into 4 Ohms, but can produce 2/3db more than that before audible clipping. 3db is double power - so it "could" produce 760w into a 4 ohm load in single channel opporation.
 
All I know is it is way louder than the matrix. This amp way pretty great when it came out. I bought it because Jerry Cantrell used it live with his Bogner Fish preamp back on the Alice In Chains Dirt tour. He used to power four 4x12's with it on stage. I've had it about 20 years and not ever a problem. I can't even imagine ever making this amp clip. It's way too loud to push it that much.
 
Oh - I get that. Ive not seen anything but praise for it - and being class a in oporation is going to sound damn nice. I was mearly pointing out that fromt he manual - its NOT 250w if only a single channel is used - its 380+3db (if fed from its required 775mV). That actually makes it more powerfull than the Matrix from the same IP - so it will be louder (potentially).

If you need all the volume you can get from the Mosvalve then the Matrix wont keep up - but if (as you say) its way too loud to push - then the Matrix shouldnt be that far off in volume or tone/feel - and its smaller and considerably lighter. The choice is there - go with whatever works.
 
I dig it, I was just kinda shocked when I fired it up considering the matrix I thought was supposed to really have twice the watts as my Mosvalve.
 
To the main question, Yes it does. I just got mine on Saturday from Mark Day and hooked it up when I got home from the AXE-FEST and man it's cool. To me its very percussive, when you hit the strings, it will definitely pierce your ears. I had to turn it down often, because when you play it, it can get really, really loud. You will not be diss-appointed with this device, I promise you.
 
scottburrow said:
To the main question, Yes it does. I just got mine on Saturday from Mark Day and hooked it up when I got home from the AXE-FEST and man it's cool. To me its very percussive, when you hit the strings, it will definitely pierce your ears. I had to turn it down often, because when you play it, it can get really, really loud. You will not be diss-appointed with this device, I promise you.
Click to expand...

Hi Scott, I am glad you like it. It was great to meet you at Axe-Fest. I am looking forward to the next one already.
Best regards
Matt
 
There has always been some confusion regarding valve watts and SS watts, and all i knew was that the valve watts sounded much bigger.... I have built a few guitar rigs over the years and always used valve power amps. I did try a few SS power amps but they sounded rubbish, and although had higher wattage ratings, didn't even come close to the volume, punch, and impact of a valve power amp. However, I am now using a Matrix GT1000 in my latest rig (with an Axe Ultra) at 4ohms a side into 2 Marshall 4x12 cabs rated at 350w each. I used the old engineering "4 to 5 times watts" calculator (you need 4 to 5 times the SS watts to match Valve watts) so guessed the Matrix would more than match my old Marshall EL34 50/50 running in stereo. Happy to say, volume wise, the Matrix will p**s all over the Marshall :) I run the Matrix at 100% with the Axe output at about "3" position...... makes my trousers flap about in the wind coming from the cab behind me!! It is massively loud!
Going back to the "4 to 5" calculation, I think it is about right myself...... :)
Hope this helps? :)
 
schlagdog said:
I dig it, I was just kinda shocked when I fired it up considering the matrix I thought was supposed to really have twice the watts as my Mosvalve.
Click to expand...

Put simply, it has got twice as many watts, you simply haven't used them yet.

Did you get the peak light on the matrix? If not, then turn it up some more, you are still just tickling it. If you haven't turned it up enough to get the signal lights steadily on, you are probably getting less than 50W out of it... theres another 950W still waiting for you to open the taps ..
 
Matt, I know I should have paid attention at Axe-fest, but my question is should I max the matrix or the Axe?
 
Makes no differnce. There effectivly inthe same place inthe signal chain.

Personally, I max the AFX and control via the Matrix - but thats purly logistical. My guitar cable gets in the way of the AFX output knob lol. When I ran a Standard and a GT800 I max'd the Matrix and controlled from the AFX.
 
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