Do we need better Mic sims?

[mortega76]

I had a feeling the forum was going to be restored to "a couple of days ago..." so I went ahead and copied what I wrote down to a file... so here it is again!

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I have to drastically kick up the highs and adjust the advanced parameter along with adding an EQ just to get the amps to not sound so "dark" or "muddy" (especially for high gain stuff)... Do we need better Mic sims? Are the Mic sims as good as they get? What are everyone's thoughts? I get a lot closer as soon as I kick in a bit of BBE's Sonic Maximizer, do we need that in our Axe-fx?

I'm sure we can get different results using custom IR's but I would love to see how close we could get to "recorded" tones using stock options... and even using some IR's, I can't get close until I adjust the advanced parameters of the Amp sim and a bit of BBE's Sonic Maximizer... but even then I don't "completely" get there... The best description I can give is that my "highs" start to sound "artificial" if I add too much on the back end... I don't know if I'm describing what I'm trying to say clearly or not... thanks!

I'll try to post some "comparison" clips to show what I'm talking about hopefully tonight!

Edit: I should have mentioned that this is for "recording" tones... I don't have any other "amps" to compare the Axe-fx in a live situation so I'm taking everyone else's word for it... and that is why I'm asking if we need better Mic Sims... thanks again!!!

 

[Zen Guitar]

I have also been curious as to the resolution/quality of the mics sims since AFIK there have been no changes to them, unlike just about every other virtual component in the Axe-Fx. Either this means that Cliff feels the quality has stood the test of time or is something that is currently on the back burner. I know that the cabinet IR resolution was increased (doubled), but am not aware of any such changes to the mic sims. It seems like this might be a logical thing to consider since, for the most part, the mic sims are used in series with the cab IR's.

These speculation aside, I would love to see a few more choice mic sims added.

Cheers,
-Matt

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I know that the cabinet IR resolution was increased (doubled), but am not aware of any such changes to the mic sims.

Such changes would not offer a substantial improvement. Mics are intrinsically better-behaved (i.e., their responses have less fine detail) than loudspeakers and therefore need less resolution to characterize accurately.

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.

 

[Smilzo]

I have to drastically kick up the highs and adjust the advanced parameter along with adding an EQ just to get the amps to not sound so "dark" or "muddy" (especially for high gain stuff)...

I love bright sound, and I find amp+cab is "balanced". Playing live I adjust bass to taste (turn down them). Maybe you have some problem in your chain. :?:

 

[voes]

[quote="Zen Guitar":1ka2w8cy]I know that the cabinet IR resolution was increased (doubled), but am not aware of any such changes to the mic sims.

Such changes would not offer a substantial improvement. Mics are intrinsically better-behaved (i.e., their responses have less fine detail) than loudspeakers and therefore need less resolution to characterize accurately.

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.[/quote:1ka2w8cy]

+1

 

[Agent420]

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's... They include samples of various cabinets and mics in various positions and have special IR files for use with the AxeFX. The free trial download includes many examples...

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's...

There are major issues with those IRs. See: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6727.

Edit: if you're interested in adding with the response of a microphone into your signal chain and want the option of having off-axis mic responses, the only way to make much use of that is to have separate IRs for the mics and angles of interest. This could potentially be done with user cab sim locations.

Recabinet IRs include the effect of the speaker, a tube amp, and the mic/aiming angle in a single IR. There's no way to tweak (or, more to the point, remove) individual elements independently of the others.

 

[VegaBaby]

I'm saying the same thing I said yesterday...I'm quite happy with the results I'm getting from the two Neumann sims and the Royer.

In real life with real mics it can take far longer and you still need all the post processing, Eq here and there to get desired results as well (at least most of the time) .

There's always the 'null' option as well

 

[Zen Guitar]

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.

Thanks, Jay! I always appreciate your responses.

I wonder if Cliff will offer some additional mic simms at some point, and possibly include simms with off-axis response. Having on and off axis simms would allow for use of the Fredman technique.

I'm not sure if this is possible to construct in a simple mic simm (without including a particular cabinet into an IR), but having a figure 8 response simm (placed sideways) would allow for M-S micing combinations as well, which would be useful. Is this a possibility?

Another thought that I had... Would it would be useful to be able to select a mic, but choose null as the cab, and place this in series with a reverb to ambient room micing?

One other question, Jay... Have you constructed any cab IR's for open back cabs that have an additional IR for the rear of the cab (polarity reversed) in order to use with the front mic'd IR to simulate a cab mic'd both front and back, as is common?

Thanks,
-Matt

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I'm not sure if this is possible to construct in a simple mic simm (without including a particular cabinet into an IR), but having a figure 8 response simm (placed sideways) would allow for M-S micing combinations as well, which would be useful. Is this a possibility?

No. A ribbon mic with the null aimed at the speaker will pick up an exaggerated amount of room sound. There is no way to duplicate this effect with mic and cab sims in the Axe-Fx.

Have you constructed any cab IR's for open back cabs that have an additional IR for the rear of the cab (polarity reversed) in order to use with the front mic'd IR to simulate a cab mic'd both front and back, as is common?

No. My intent in acquiring speaker IRs is to eliminate the sound contributed by the mic and the room, retaining only the direct-field response of the speaker. I have been and remain interested in avoiding, rather than recreating, the imperfections caused by various mic'ing techniques. That's why I never use mic sims.

 

[Matt_B]

I have yet to use a mic sim. I'm happy with the cabs I've used so far (112 E12L and 412 75w) without them.

 

[plexi59]

Same here. I've played with mic sims when I just got my Axe, but currently all my patches don't use any mics at all.

 

[mba]

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's...

if you're interested in adding with the response of a microphone into your signal chain and want the option of having off-axis mic responses, the only way to make much use of that is to have separate IRs for the mics and angles of interest. This could potentially be done with user cab sim locations.

+1
So it can be helpful to get user spaces for mic's IRs like for speakers.
The mic's IR are useful to me.

 

[Mesaholic]

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's... They include samples of various cabinets and mics in various positions and have special IR files for use with the AxeFX. The free trial download includes many examples...

Certainly try them for yourself but I was grossly disappointed with the Vintage set after waiting months for it.

 

[leonardg]

I have to drastically kick up the highs and adjust the advanced parameter along with adding an EQ just to get the amps to not sound so "dark" or "muddy" (especially for high gain stuff)...

The defaults generally are too bright for my tele.

 

[javajunkie]

The one thing I could think of that would enhance the utility of the mic sims - I never use 'em myself - would be to add IRs for each mic at various off-axis angles. The response of most microphones is strongly directional, and one of the variables that folks play with when mic'ing instruments is the aiming angle of the mic.

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's... They include samples of various cabinets and mics in various positions and have special IR files for use with the AxeFX. The free trial download includes many examples...

Certainly try them for yourself but I was grossly disappointed with the Vintage set after waiting months for it.

Me too.

 

[mortega76]

I was going to spend the time to create some Axe-fx vs Professionally Recorded tones clips but since 7.17 seems to (possibly) address this issue.

 

[fandyboy]

Don't know if it's helpful, but it might be worth trying some of ReCabinet's IR's... They include samples of various cabinets and mics in various positions and have special IR files for use with the AxeFX. The free trial download includes many examples...

Certainly try them for yourself but I was grossly disappointed with the Vintage set after waiting months for it.

Me too.

The vintage recabinets are useless as far as I'm concerned, he ran the test tone through the full amp section (tubes and all) of the amp, not just the speakers.

 

[Agent420]

Lol.. I've never tried them myself (didn't have the need), but knew they existed so posted the link... guess I won't bother checking them out