DMM Model Question

[jlynnb1]

I know what you're getting at, but I've owned a lot of analog delays, and they don't change the overall tone the same way the DMM model does. I've never owned a vintage DMM, but, to my ears, there's something off. And it's not simply due to the nature of analog repeats vs. digital.

i've played plenty, especially vintage ones, that very much change the tone on the repeats....that's the allure for most people. if you want crystal clear repeats use a digital delay and be done with it.

 

[jshirkey]

i've played plenty, especially vintage ones, that very much change the tone on the repeats....that's the allure for most people. if you want crystal clear repeats use a digital delay and be done with it.

I don't want crystal clear repeats. If I did, I'd be using a different delay. I know exactly what I want because I'm replicating a simple, classic signal chain (guitar-->OD-->DMM w/mod-->vintage AC30), and I know exactly how it should sound. This ain't it.

 

[jlynnb1]

I don't want crystal clear repeats. If I did, I'd be using a different delay. I know exactly what I want because I'm replicating a simple, classic signal chain (guitar-->OD-->DMM w/mod-->vintage AC30), and I know exactly how it should sound. This ain't it.

agree to disagree

 

[jshirkey]

agree to disagree

I'm persistent, I guess. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll grab an OD-1, which is the pedal model I'm using in the FX8, and I'll grab my Echoczar, which is the closest thing at the moment (in the true analog realm, that is) and run them into my '64 AC30. If it sounds as reverb-y as the FX8 with the DMM, I'll stand corrected. I can also use a Strymon Brigadier, a TC Flashback, or a TC Alter Ego on their respective DMM-style settings.

I'm pretty well convinced that the problem I'm having has to do with the input gain of the DMM being too high, as someone else suggested. Here is my reference tone (fwiw), and you can hear the guitar clearly. It's not overwhelmed and washed out by the echo. The repeats complement the sound; they don't overtake it.

 

[Atmospheric]

If you don't need modulated repeats, you might find either of the BBD models to your liking. The Boss DM-2 is still my analog delay touchstone and has been for more than 30 years. There was quite a variance in them, but if you got a good one they were magical. The FX8 Mono BBD model is the very best DM-2 emulation I've heard. It might be worth a try if the DMM isn't working for you.

 

[iaresee]

If you don't need modulated repeats, you might find either of the BBD models to your liking. The Boss DM-2 is still my analog delay touchstone and has been for more than 30 years. There was quite a variance in them, but if you got a good one they were magical. The FX8 Mono BBD model is the very best DM-2 emulation I've heard. It might be worth a try if the DMM isn't working for you.

You can dial in modulation on the repeats on any model! The presets are just starting points you can jump off from. The deep end of the delay pool is all kinds of fun!

 

[bradlake]

I think the extent to which the newly upgraded delays are affecting our use has yet to be fully discovered and exploited by most of us..(come on @simeon, show us yer nu blox...)and certainly FX8 users who just got em,but to my ear the Delux Mind Guy we now have can sound ridiculously good ,especially in Ping pong mode with some judicious modulatory tweakage..its really getting hard to believe how lucky we are to have all this FAS goodness at our eartips.

 

[Atmospheric]

I think the extent to which the newly upgraded delays are affecting our use has yet to be fully discovered and exploited by most of us..(come on @simeon, show us yer nu blox...)and certainly FX8 users who just got em,but to my ear the Delux Mind Guy we now have can sound ridiculously good ,especially in Ping pong mode with some judicious modulatory tweakage..its really getting hard to believe how lucky we are to have all this FAS goodness at our eartips.

I completely agree. I just rehearsed yesterday. I'm playing very clean these days. Think Knopfler-esque strat tones meet Chris Isaak. But the thing about clean sounds is (in my experience) it's hard to get them to both sound good and feel good. And if they don't feel right, they don't inspire me. Clean exposes a lot.

Yesterday, I turned to my bassist (who has great ears) between songs and said "This is the best clean sound I've ever had... in 50 years." I'm basically using a smidge of compression, a couple of PEG blocks based on the EMG Gilmour active controls, a volume pedal block into BBD, with London Plate verb into a very clean amp with a tiny bit of spring reverb.

I'm just stunned with how good the FX8 can sound. And if it doesn't sound good, it's usually my lack of skills programming it. The future seems boundless.

 

[jshirkey]

I just downloaded the 5.04 beta FW, so I'm going to go back to my presets and see how things go.

One thing that I still don't quite have a handle on is what the various parameters in the mixer section do: input gain, level, and mix. Mix seems to be the typical mix parameter I'm familiar with. It just sets the repeat level vs. the dry signal. But input gain and level are still a bit of a mystery. Let's say I turn down the input gain. That usually means I need to compensate by turning up the level. The reverse holds true, as well. So, is it six of one, half dozen the other? The end results seem similar to me. I know I just need to read up on things. Maybe I need to d/l the latest manual.

 

[Rex]

input Level determines how much of the incoming signal gets fed to the delay. It doesn't affect the dry signal, which just passes through to the Mix control.

Level works the same as it does in all blocks. It sets the output level of the entire block, after the dry signal has been Mixed back in.

 

[jshirkey]

input Level determines how much of the incoming signal gets fed to the delay. It doesn't affect the dry signal, which just passes through to the Mix control.

Level works the same as it does in all blocks. It sets the output level of the entire block, after the dry signal has been Mixed back in.

Okay, it makes sense, but it also raises more questions. These are the things I struggle with, since there are endless parameters to tweak.

Why wouldn't every input gain (is this what you mean by input level above) be set at 100%? If I set it for less than 100%, and I hear a substantial volume drop, do I simply compensate by turning up the effect's level, or do I go back and set the input gain at 100% again?

Is the incoming signal whatever is coming from the output of the previous effect's output block (assuming series connections)? If there is no effect before the DMM, then the incoming signal is the dry signal, right?

In this preset, my chain is simple--an OD into the DMM and out to my amp. If I find that what I'm hearing coming out of my amp is too loud, I can: 1. Turn down my amp (I tend to have a pretty good idea of where I need to have it set, though); 2. Turn down the Level of the OD; 3. Turn down the Level of the DMM. (Am I missing anything else? Let's assume my signal levels to the FX8 are fine...) Why would it matter whether I turn down the level of the OD vs. the DMM? My instincts tell me to turn down the OD first.

Let's say when I do that, I feel like the character of my OD changes--so maybe I compensate by during up the drive knob a little.
Then I'm not sure my repeats are clear enough--so I tweak the mix knob a little bit on the DMM. And then maybe I bring up the DMM Level.
And then something else isn't quite right...and so on. I feel like I can go around in circles endlessly chasing optimum levels relative from one effect to another--and how that, in turn, affects the overall output/sound.

It's also easy to say "F it...this is good enough!" and move on. But I still wonder if my tone could be better sometimes.

 

[Rex]

Why wouldn't every input gain (is this what you mean by input level above) be set at 100%?

Let's say you have multiple repeats, and you want to be able to fade the echoes in and out. If you attach your expression pedal to Input Gain, then you can roll back the pedal to generate quieter echoes, but original stronger echoes continue at their original higher strength—while your dry signal remains at a constant level. It's a pretty neat effect.

Is the incoming signal whatever is coming from the output of the previous effect's output block (assuming series connections)? If there is no effect before the DMM, then the incoming signal is the dry signal, right?

Yes and yes.

In this preset, my chain is simple--an OD into the DMM and out to my amp. If I find that what I'm hearing coming out of my amp is too loud, I can: 1. Turn down my amp (I tend to have a pretty good idea of where I need to have it set, though); 2. Turn down the Level of the OD; 3. Turn down the Level of the DMM. (Am I missing anything else? Let's assume my signal levels to the FX8 are fine...) Why would it matter whether I turn down the level of the OD vs. the DMM? My instincts tell me to turn down the OD first.

Turn down the Level of the block that's causing it to be too loud.

Let's say when I do that, I feel like the character of my OD changes...

Level won't affect the character of your OD unless it's in a block that's feeding your OD. In this case, we're working with Level in the Delay block, which is downstream from the OD, so it cannot affect the OD's character.

Then I'm not sure my repeats are clear enough--so I tweak the mix knob a little bit on the DMM. And then maybe I bring up the DMM Level.
And then something else isn't quite right...and so on. I feel like I can go around in circles endlessly chasing optimum levels relative from one effect to another--and how that, in turn, affects the overall output/sound.

The mix law in the Delay block is designed to keep the level of your dry signal constant between 0% and 50% mix. In most situations, that will avoid the going-around-in-circles thing entirely.

It's also easy to say "F it...this is good enough!" and move on. But I still wonder if my tone could be better sometimes.

Always wonder.