Discussion about output levels

T

Thenewexhibit

Experienced
I had some questions about the output levels, and was curious how you guys are using yours. I read through the manual, and I noticed that you can set the output to -10dBV or +4dBu.

I know default is -10dBV. When would I switch to +4dBu? What is considered pro grade equipment that calls for +4dBu? Would that be to front of house to a console like an Allen & Heath or X32? Or would that be studio preamps/line in etc?

One thing I notice is that if I go 1/4" Line In on my interface (Focusrite Saffire Pro 40), I have to turn the output knob up all the way up on the FM9 and then still go past noon on the preamp to get a good signal (my tones are tickling the red in Axe Edit, and I generally go for -15 to -12 in the DAW). Is this a scenario when I should switch the FM9 to +4dBu?

How are you guys running your output knobs too? I generally leave mine at noon. Just curious how you guys are rolling and if you're changing it for different situations and what situations -10dBV or +4dBu would be called for.
 
When I control the gear I set it to +4 because I know I can turn the mixer channel gain down to accept that high signal. When someone else is running sound and doesn’t know what they’re doing I set it to -10.

You can turn the physical out knob all the way up if you want and if the next piece of gear can accept that level. But you also don’t need to.

Most of the time I have it set to -10 and keep the physical knob between 9 o clock and 3 o clock depending on the sound guy and what he needs.

No need to overthink this one, in my opinion. If you need more level because of the next piece of gear, set it to +4. If you’re sending too much signal, set it to -10.

Again I leave it at -10 for most performances and set whatever level the operator of the system says. “Woah that’s way too much signal” is common, only because they think they can’t set the mixer channel gain below 12 o clock for some reason. I really have to find out who taught everyone that.
 
On another note, I noticed that the Saffire Pro 40 is -10 to +36 for Line level gain, and +10 to +55 mic gain. In this case, does this mean switching to +4dBu would be appropriate for Line In, but if I was using XLR, then I would keep it at -10dBV? AM I on the right track?? haha
 
Thenewexhibit said:
On another note, I noticed that the Saffire Pro 40 is -10 to +36 for Line level gain, and +10 to +55 mic gain. In this case, does this mean switching to +4dBu would be appropriate for Line In, but if I was using XLR, then I would keep it at -10dBV? AM I on the right track?? haha
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It depends where you want your output knob. Technically speaking, out knob all the way up would give the cleanest, strongest signal, but even at low settings, the units don’t make much noise so the knob can run low too.

The out knob does not “need” to be all the way up, it’s just a popular setting for repeatability and the technical theory of cleanest signal. Again, at gigs I typically have it around 9 o clock to 12 o clock and it sounds great. It’s not like 9 o clock has an unusable sound with terrible noise or anything. (At times on this forum, some people’s descriptions make it sound like it’s noisy and unusable at low settings, but that’s just not how it is.)

Just decide where you want your out knob to be usually, and set the options and Saffire gain where it needs to be for that position.
 
chris said:
When I control the gear I set it to +4 because I know I can turn the mixer channel gain down to accept that high signal. When someone else is running sound and doesn’t know what they’re doing I set it to -10.

You can turn the physical out knob all the way up if you want and if the next piece of gear can accept that level. But you also don’t need to.

Most of the time I have it set to -10 and keep the physical knob between 9 o clock and 3 o clock depending on the sound guy and what he needs.

No need to overthink this one, in my opinion. If you need more level because of the next piece of gear, set it to +4. If you’re sending too much signal, set it to -10.

Again I leave it at -10 for most performances and set whatever level the operator of the system says. “Woah that’s way too much signal” is common, only because they think they can’t set the mixer channel gain below 12 o clock for some reason. I really have to find out who taught everyone that.
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Got ya! Thanks for the reply on this! If I'm going Line In on my interface, the low levels I was getting (turning the gain knob up quite a bit and the FM9 maxed out) I assume is to be expected at -10dBV, so in that case +4dBu is more appropriate when going Line In (-10 to +36 gain) I assume? Just asking to get a better understanding from a learning perspective. :)
 
Thenewexhibit said:
Got ya! Thanks for the reply on this! If I'm going Line In on my interface, the low levels I was getting (turning the gain knob up quite a bit and the FM9 maxed out) I assume is to be expected at -10dBV, so in that case +4dBu is more appropriate when going Line In (-10 to +36 gain) I assume? Just asking to get a better understanding from a learning perspective. :)
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Someone with better technical understanding can explain it better. I just set things where they work well together.

It also depends on your preset/internal levels. Factory presets are leveled well, and a good way to make sure any presets you design are in a good range, by comparing them. Also the built in leveling meter on the Layout page, zoomed out, or the Level set tool in Edit.
 
chris said:
Someone with better technical understanding can explain it better. I just set things where they work well together.

It also depends on your preset/internal levels. Factory presets are leveled well, and a good way to make sure any presets you design are in a good range, by comparing them. Also the built in leveling meter on the Layout page, zoomed out, or the Level set tool in Edit.
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Cool! Thank you so much, Chris! I really appreciate it!
 
According to the manual, your interface has a maximum line-level input of +22 dBu, which is very close to the FM9's maximum output level of +20 dBu, which it can only achieve at the higher (+4 dBu) setting. So that's a good choice. :)
 
Rex said:
According to the manual, your interface has a maximum line-level input of +22 dBu, which is very close to the FM9's maximum output level of +20 dBu, which it can only achieve at the higher (+4 dBu) setting. SO that's a good choice. :)
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Oh, wow! Where did you find that info?? I looked in the manual, but I must have looked at the wrong thing! haha
 
Thenewexhibit said:
Wow, I TOTALLY overlooked that! Thank you so much!!! So then I take it, by seeing the max Mic gain input being +7, that would be better for the -10dBV setting then, which makes sense!
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Yup.

Interfaces and mixers are generally considered pro-level gear, because your average consumer won't have gear like that. So +4 dBu is usually the right choice. But as @chris pointed out above, an inexperienced sound person might not know how to handle such a hot signal. If that happens, -10 dBV might be a better choice. Pro-level gear doesn't always equal pro-level operator. :)
 
I use the SPDif connection from Ax3 to my interface which saves one round of D>A / A>D conversions. Volume is set automatically with this method so the physical Axfx output knobs have no effect on volume going into the interface (my Roland interface sees it as a healthy signal). Another advantage of this method is that the standard Ax3 outputs as well as the standard interface inputs are still available to use even with SPDif actively in use. I also like using 1 less physical cable.
 
Generally speaking:

Use -10 when connecting to inputs of guitar amps and other 'instrument level' gear.

Use +4 when connecting to 'line level' inputs - like line level inputs on mixers and most inputs (i.e., other than 'mic' or 'instrument' inputs) on other 'pro audio' gear.

Use SPDIF or USB when connecting to gear with digital inputs (like computer interfaces, digital recorders, digital processors). As noted above, you might as well eliminated superfluous D->A and A->D steps.
 
Since it all depends - like many other audio setting decisions - I always start at the lowest output and turn up slowly. If that’s not loud enough/not enough signal, then I turn down, change to the louder setting, and turn up slowly again.

Saves me from knowing the details of every piece of gear I may connect to, and is repeatable, quick and gets the result I need.
 
Tonedeaf said:
On my FM3 with the headphone output, switching between the two does nothing. So, which one am I hearing?
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Not sure but I don't think those output settings will have any effect thru headphones - just when connected via output jacks.
 
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