Direct vs mic...need help

[torkolort]

I must be doing something wrong, and I hope you guys can help me out!
The first part is the Atomic Reactor FR with an SM58 into mic input on a my TC Electronic konnekt 8. Never done this before, and can't play loud so I cranked up the gain on the interface. It's in mono. Second part is stereo recorded direct using line inputs on the konnekt 8.. I've also tried spdif but it's pretty much the same result. Same patch on both recordings obv. Please have a listen:

http://www.4shared.com/audio/nU8URzkw/d ... s_mic.html

Don't mind the sloppy playing, just a little sample to show you the difference. My patch use a redwires IR with sm57 so I guess it's not optimal to be recording with an sm58 but that's not the point. Even thought it's far from perfect, the first part is a lot more round and smooth, while the direct is too bright and distorted.

If I could get the direct recordings to sound like it does while playing through the Atomic I would be in heaven!!

 

[tgunn]

You could try sharing the patch for easier troubleshooting along with which redwirez IR you're using. Nice playing btw
The redwirez IRs already contain a mic IR, so no need to add the additional mic. I usually set mic to none with redwirez.
Global amp and cab sims enabled?
No signal overload occurring anywhere?

 

[torkolort]

I use MesaRectifierV30s-SM57-CapEdge-0in for this patch.

I do have the mic sim set to "none", what I meant is I record with an actual SM58
Amp and cab sims enabled yes, everything is the same for both clips, except the way of recording. That's why I don't understand why they are so different...

 

[godprobe]

if I had to guess (and that's all it would be! ), I'd assume it's partially the doubling of mics (one real, one in the IR), and partially from capturing the sound of the room and mic placement

i definitely do hear what you're talking about with round/smooth vs. bright/distorted. unfortunately... my tweaking abilities aren't enough to be able to point you where to go in the Axe to replicate the round/smooth for direct :? -- I'd probably try additional cab sims, some light reverbs, EQ, and maybe compression though.

 

[torkolort]

if I had to guess (and that's all it would be! ), I'd assume it's partially the doubling of mics (one real, one in the IR), and partially from capturing the sound of the room and mic placement

i definitely do hear what you're talking about with round/smooth vs. bright/distorted. unfortunately... my tweaking abilities aren't enough to be able to point you where to go in the Axe to replicate the round/smooth for direct :? -- I'd probably try additional cab sims, some light reverbs, EQ, and maybe compression though.

Yeah the mic setup definitely colors the sound in some ways, but that's not what bothers me. The real issue here is that the very core of the sound (or whatever I should call it) differs so much between the two setups. What I hear when playing through the Atomic is not even close to the recordings, they just sound really bad...Also, all the clips I've heard of other people playing direct sounds a lot better and closer to what I want. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

 

[torkolort]

I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

Yeah I agree, that IR is generally too bright. But changing IR doesn't really solve it. The biggest issue while recording direct is the distortion. No matter how I tweak the patch, it's never good enough, especially lead parts. It feels wrong, it's like it's less gain, more distortion and has this ugly, annoying, penetrating, screaming sound...just want it to be identical to what I hear through the Atomic!

 

[FractalAudio]

Did you record the direct part with headphones or whisper quiet? Sounds it to me and sounds like you need some acoustic reinforcement.

 

[torkolort]

I mostly use headphones, just got a pair of Beyerdynamic dt770 pro...As I don't have any studio monitors, what I've also tried, and did in this case, was to run output 1 through the Atomic and output 2 direct into the Konnekt 8. I guess neither are optimal setups, but does it really have that big of an impact on the result? For me it feels like there's something wrong with the signal...but I have no idea.

 

[yek]

I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

That's a matter of personal opinion.
In fact Red Wirez recommends positions CapEdge 0" and 1" with the SM57.

 

[guitarnerdswe]

I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

That's a matter of personal opinion.
In fact Red Wirez recommends positions CapEdge 0" and 1" with the SM57.

Depends on the cab and speaker. No one position will every work on all cabs and speakers. Cone won't work on lets say the Übercab, way too thick, and cone will actually be too bright on some speaker/cab combos.

 

[joegold]

Is it possible that either:
1. You've got the tweeter turned down on the Atomic?
or
2. You've placed the mic nowhere near the tweeter when you recorded the Atomic?

Other than that, the two clips should sound a lot more alike.
They wouldn't be exact mind you, but they should be a lot more alike.

 

[torkolort]

Is it possible that either:
1. You've got the tweeter turned down on the Atomic?
or
2. You've placed the mic nowhere near the tweeter when you recorded the Atomic?

Other than that, the two clips should sound a lot more alike.
They wouldn't be exact mind you, but they should be a lot more alike.

Thanks for recognizing the problem!
I have not touched anything on the Atomic other than the power and standby switch...the tweeter level is at 12:00.
I think the mic position was slightly left of the tweeter. I did the clips in a hurry, and could probably get the mic recording to sound a lot better, but this was just to show the main difference in the tone (smooth and round vs flat and distorted).

I'm glad to hear that the two clips should theoretically sound more alike, because I'm really happy with the tone I get with the Atomic. But that leaves me even more eager to find out why they sound so different and what I can do to fix it. Getting the same result with direct recording would be so awesome!! Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[joegold]

Is it possible that either:
1. You've got the tweeter turned down on the Atomic?
or
2. You've placed the mic nowhere near the tweeter when you recorded the Atomic?

Other than that, the two clips should sound a lot more alike.
They wouldn't be exact mind you, but they should be a lot more alike.

Thanks for recognizing the problem!
I have not touched anything on the Atomic other than the power and standby switch...the tweeter level is at 12:00.
I think the mic position was slightly left of the tweeter. I did the clips in a hurry, and could probably get the mic recording to sound a lot better, but this was just to show the main difference in the tone (smooth and round vs flat and distorted).

I'm glad to hear that the two clips should theoretically sound more alike, because I'm really happy with the tone I get with the Atomic. But that leaves me even more eager to find out why they sound so different and what I can do to fix it. Getting the same result with direct recording would be so awesome!! Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks!

Well if the Atomic sounds drastically different to your ears in the room (let's leave the 58 out of the equation) than your direct recordings sound then it seems to me that either:
1. The Atomic isn't doing the job it's supposed to be doing very well at all.
or
2. You've got some sort of a hook-up problem with your sound card.

I can't really be of much more help than that.

Have you tried similar experiments using another FRFR speaker besides the Atomic?

 

[AlbertA]

Sounds fine to me, perhaps all you need to add is a room verb for the direct one, 'cause that's pretty much the only difference I hear between the mic'ed 1st half and direct.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

That's a matter of personal opinion.
In fact Red Wirez recommends positions CapEdge 0" and 1" with the SM57.

Sure it is. If the OP thought his direct tone was too bright but what I heard was exactly how the Mesa CapEdge IR sounds. I happen to think that it lacks low end while the Cone position gives it more low end. Sure if you A/B them you might think that the CapEdge is better choice since it's more sharp but in a mix... sharpness is not always a good thing. Anyways it was just my opinion. And I wouldn't use reverb on my patches. For me it feels like compensating for a bad IR. Like: "well it sounds a bit "meh" but the reverb will blur it all together" and that's a big no-no!

 

[yek]

[quote="Clark Kent":1wrtbpnl]I used to have that Redwire IR in all my patches but now I realized that it is way too bright. Try the cone position. It'll be better for sure.

That's a matter of personal opinion.
In fact Red Wirez recommends positions CapEdge 0" and 1" with the SM57.

Sure it is. If the OP thought his direct tone was too bright but what I heard was exactly how the Mesa CapEdge IR sounds. I happen to think that it lacks low end while the Cone position gives it more low end. Sure if you A/B them you might think that the CapEdge is better choice since it's more sharp but in a mix... sharpness is not always a good thing. Anyways it was just my opinion. And I wouldn't use reverb on my patches. For me it feels like compensating for a bad IR. Like: "well it sounds a bit "meh" but the reverb will blur it all together" and that's a big no-no! [/quote:1wrtbpnl]

True!