Dialing in using in Ears

[VirtualGuitar]

Looking for advice and input on dialing in sounds using IEM's.
I am using Ultimate Ear 5's, taking to left unbalanced output (XLR), from Axe FXII into a Mackie Mix 8 mixer, EQ on the mixer set flat and level and gain to Unity.
So far the sound seems more "muddy:, than when using my QSC K-10 FRFR.
Advice an comments wold be welcomed - thanks..

 

[svl]

My advice? DON'T.

Why anyone tries to dial in tones for an audience to hear through a device (IEMs) that only you hear has never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Dial in your sounds via the PA your band uses if possible. Otherwise use the best FRFR speaker you have (in your case the K-10).

 

[ChrisCG]

Yeah I use IEM and would never dial in my tone using them. As stated above use your bands PA or your K 10. You can always Eq out whatever mud you hear in your IEM.

 

[hotlegs]

I'm dialing my sound with my ultimate ear ue10 because I have to hear my guitar tone about 2 or 3 hours a gig! UE10 is very linear and there are only (sometimes) minor tweaks for the audience from our sound guy (different rooms etc.). I listen directly the axe sound without post processing from FOH - so my sound is always exactly the same. I'm using in ears about 10 years and started with axe ultra FW 2 or 3 (don't know exactly) now FX II - best system for having always the same sound in your head.

 

[Pinkycramps]

My advice? DON'T.

Why anyone tries to dial in tones for an audience to hear through a device (IEMs) that only you hear has never made any sense to me whatsoever.

Dial in your sounds via the PA your band uses if possible. Otherwise use the best FRFR speaker you have (in your case the K-10).

+1
I think that's good advice. My band owns our own PA, with QSC KW 153s and matching subs. It sounds great, and it has a lot more low end than my IEM's or my CLR's. I used to dial in with my CLR's, but now I use the 153's because there is a difference.

 

[dpeterson]

I wouldn't, I use my k12 and at volume, and they translate pretty well with my ears, I add some low end via my Sennheiser G3 pack, and or the channel strip going to my ears if needed, as my custom buds are pretty flat.

 

[brokenvail]

I have done it before with great results BUT I already knew what my tones sounds like through my CLR and I new what the headphones/ IEM changed from what I hear in the clr so I tweaked knowing for example that sound scooped in headphones would sound fine in clr because headphones were scooped or bright in headphones was perfect in clr because headphones were kind bright. I have done this so long that I have actually made sounds a few times without hearing it at all just setting knobs around where I would expect they should be and when I plug it in at another time the tone is great or just needs 3 sec with or adjusting.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Issue with IEM's is that everyone has different ear canal lengths and overall volumes and typically there is a resonant peak around 3000-4000 Hz, just due to the acoustics of the ear canal (basically an open ended resonator).

Even if your have a totally flat response IEM (probably not possible), your actual perception of the sound is going to be different due to the acoustics of the ear canal. When we fit hearing aids we often take a measurement called a real ear aided response, which involves a little probe mic that goes near the ear drum, and then an external mic. The device measures the differences in the external signal and that which is produced by the hearing aid.

For example, the hearing aid can be programmed to provide 15db gain at 2,000 Hz, but what is actually reaching the patients ear is only 9 dB of gain (pretty big difference given the dB scale). This means that while that hearing aid is programmed correctly for the patients hearing loss, the actual signal reaching the ear drum is far less, due to things like the acoustics of the canal.

Long story short, IEM's are not going to be anywhere near a flat response, so I wouldn't suggest dialing in a tone with them. Instead, I would dial in with a reference system, and then tweak the IEM's EQ in order to sound pretty similar. Doesn't work the other way around.

IEM's are a fantastic stage tool, but aren't anything you'd use for dialing in tones, or a studio tool etc.

 

[Rotti]

I would do it, but my philosophy is completely counter to catering to an audience. I make sounds for ME to enjoy... if they like it too, icing on the cake. If not, they know where they can go.

However, if you're a sane gigging musician, you probably have a different mindset than I.

 

[pitmonkey]

I'd be interested to hear Cooper weigh in on this one. He mentioned during the CreativeLive videos that he dials in his live tones on IEM. I actually bought JHS13's based on the fact that he uses them.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I'd be interested to hear Cooper weigh in on this one. He mentioned during the CreativeLive videos that he dials in his live tones on IEM. I actually bought JHS13's based on the fact that he uses them.

If you know how it will translate you could probably do it. Its just like using something like Yamaha NS10's, which have very little lows as your monitors. As long as you know how it will translate to a bigger system they can still work. In other words, since your not getting much lows from them, you need to know that you can crank up the bass to make them sound full, because a bigger system it would be muddy as hell.

Its a pretty tough process though, you need to know your sound, and your IEM's pretty well.

Most people are familiar with their tones via the PA or stage monitors, but a new pair of IEM's is a bit of an unknown.


In some ways though its not really that huge of deal, at least for the typical bar drunk crowd. Does it sound pretty good in your IEM's ? Great, do bandmates, sound guy etc say your FOH tone sounds good ? Again, great, just go play.

One can sometimes miss the plot a bit, getting too obsessed about the perfect tone, when no one listening really cares that much

 

[RoshRoslin]

Do both.

I have JH16s (I have an endorsement by them) and I understand the sentiment to make sure YOUR mix that you hear is great so you can play well. But it does take some tweaking in the house PA to get live tones right as well. I run power amp to cab and run to FOH while monitoring through IEM live most of the time to get the best of all three worlds.

As always, dial in your sounds AT VOLUME even when you're using IEM. I have full isolation and even my guitar tone in my IEM mix can be different live vs. at home. I try to get my tone as happening as possible during rehearsal and have the FOH/Monitor guy always send me my IEM tone pre-fader if someone else is controlling my mix. Cut out the lows in the cab block around 100 hz and cut off the highs around 6-8k as well.

Also, as a personal preference. I dial in my tones a lot brighter than I actually like so in case I hit the stage my guitar doesn't get lost in the mix. If it's too bright in my mix a little roll off the tone knob does wonders. Easier to tame a bright sound than to brighten up a dull one.

 

[Morphosis]

Every monitor system sounds different. FRFR is a theorem, we did not live in a real FLAT world! The more linear your monitor system is, the better the chances are, that sound tweaked on this system will translate well on other monitor (PA) systems.

IMO, the key is: 1) Tweak the sound on THAT system you play through and monitor yourself! 2) Tweak your sound in musical context, you want to play! Playbacks from rehearsal could help! 3) Make sure, the used system is as good, as your money pocket allow!

Remember: In the "analog" world, you also play always to one and the same monitor: The guitar cabinet! This is often overlooked, when switching to modeler and FRFR systems...

We play In-Ear as well in my band and i tweak my presets with my UE 4 Pro (and add some room verb from the cab block, to get some "room" on my ears (Mix ca. 20%)). It translate well to my Matrix Q12, as well to my db M12-4, as well to the most PA`s we play on gigs.... at least my soundcheck take mostly only three, four power chords when the FOH man say, ok, good, next one please.... The rest is the job of the FOH man, not mine... my job is to have best sound on my ear to perform as good, as i can!

 

[hotlegs]

.... at least my soundcheck take mostly only three, four power chords when the FOH man say, ok, good, next one please.... The rest is the job of the FOH man, not mine... my job is to have best sound on my ear to perform as good, as i can!

What I said before - other countries, other customs

 

[Cooper Carter]

I'd be interested to hear Cooper weigh in on this one. He mentioned during the CreativeLive videos that he dials in his live tones on IEM. I actually bought JHS13's based on the fact that he uses them.

I'll repost here what I posted in a similar thread a little while ago. This has worked for me both personally and when I've used it with several of Fractal's big name artists. Everyone has been very pleased. As with everything, YMMV.

So, here's my trick. It has worked very well so far. Sound guys have loved the tone at FOH, I've loved it in my ears, and I have used it when working with several big-name Fractal artists as well.

YMMV, but so far, we've gotten great results.

Crank up your monitoring system, whatever that is, so you're getting good feedback, sustain, and all the nice things that come with volume.

Now, put in your ears. Turn them up to where you're pretty much just hearing them, and not the monitors in the room. This is NOT to say blow out your hearing. If you have good IEMs and they seal well, this will be a normal stage IEM volume.

Now, tweak your tone to your satisfaction in your ears. You should be using a good in-ear transmitter that has a built in, high-quality limiter, so bass frequencies won't blow out your drivers when you "chunk chunk."

Once your tone is tweaked, take out your ears. Do you like what you're hearing in your monitors/cabs? Yes? Then great. You're done. No? Then tweak a bit with your ears out. Then put them back in and go toward a middle ground. This will require only very small adjustments.

This method avoids the "Different sounds on different outputs" issue. Of course, if you like having Output 1 be FOH and Output 2 be ears, then great. But that requires a lot of EQ tweaks whenever you want to change your core tone.

(Of course, if you have a monitor guy, or you have your own board you bring to gigs, then just tweak on your system without your ears, send the tone to the board, and then tweak your ears from the board.)

If you work this method correctly, there is zero "compromise" on FOH tone, but there may perhaps be a bit of a "difference." A FOH guy is ALWAYS going to tweak your tone, anyway.

 

[d2dark]

as a foh guy I never, Eq a distorted guitar signal, on a real amp I move the mic, when I go direct, I can only out an low cut to 87hz ( low D note ) to give bass more room and sometime a high cut if it's way too bright but never under 12K, witch leave the major integrity on the signal as is.
I try to influence as less as possible the tone of the band.

and in most case I get more then decent mix when I do IEM, band recognized the tone they usually hear and are happy about it