Dialing in “your” unique sound?

J

j_holt

New Member
Hey all. I’m Jared, from the beautiful city of Chicago. This is my first post here, because I’m considering jumping into the digital world. I’m still trying to convince myself of the last 10% in my head before pulling the trigger on an FM9, and I’m dealing with my purely emotional attachment to the “tradition” (or whatever you call it) of plugging in to a traditional tube amp and stomping on little circuit boxes. I’m asking this question in hopes it might reveal whether I can soothe a few lingering thoughts still holding me back.

This is perhaps a bit of an existential one, but I wanted to ask if you feel like you’ve been able to find “your” sound using just a Fractal rig. I ask because these devices are built to recreate iconic sounds (and do it impressively well) but a lot of my favorite players in the indie realm, who have very distinct sounds live, still haven’t moved over to them. I’m thinking the Mac Demarco, Alec O’Handley, Steve Sladkowski, etc. A lot of them are still using tube amps and pedalboards with great sounds and they have their own “flavor,” if you will. Obviously there are a lot of options and tweaking made possible with Fractal, but is generating a unique tone from scratch really all that hard with a palette of modeled classic sounds?

My follow up question is about dynamics. I saw Destroyer live tonight and the guitar player’s dynamics were so sweet and pure, like the guitar was talking and whispering in some parts. Is that kind of subtlety possible on an FM9 rig? That sort of “raw” feeling where you can seemingly hear people’s fingerprints on the strings?

Thanks all. One of these units is the most logical, rational, and—despite initial costs—economical choice for me, but I don’t know anyone in town playing one and I didn’t like the Helix Stomp I tried last year, so I’m still hung up on a couple things. I welcome a push over the “buy it” line and any examples or references you might be able to share.

Cheers!
 
Hi Jared, welcome to the forum, I have an FM9t and to reproduce my treasured Marshall JCM800 stack w/it has been an overwhelming +, while everyone is different on their own modeling preferences, I can tell you that the granular options for sound design really are pretty much a blank canvas with the FM9t imo, my suspicion is you won't be disappointed if you take the plunge...
Cheers
DaveO
 
I've been getting "my" sound since 2013 with the Axe Fx II.

The great thing about the Fractal stuff is that it can allow you to get your sound (or your heroes' sounds) and even allows you to let your sound change with your whims and all you have to do is change some settings!

No more tearing pedal boards apart to put your phaser before your drive, or using a Tube Screamer instead of a DS-1.
 
Welcome!

You may not find every single mom and pop indie pedal or amp in here, but practically speaking, there's a variety of options in the box that completely dwarfs even the biggest stores. 300+ amps for instance, zero additional cost or angst to check them out, highly tweakable without any electronics knowledge, soldering, or risk of disaster, completely different rig for the verse and the chorus if you want, on and on.

The quality of the models is amazing too, organic, rich, responsive, and constantly evolving.

You'll have a blast.
 
As someone who makes part of my living selling presets for the Helix series of products, the FM9 is miles ahead of the Helix / HX Stomp in every area: amp modeling, drive modeling, wet effects, routing flexibility, DSP, UI, editor, footswitch flexibility, etc... When Cliff figures out a way to improve the amp modeling, all the amps get the improvements, so after hundreds of improvements over the years the cumulative effect is massive, so all the amps are extremely accurate and still receive regular improvements. Firmware 7 beta just came out yesterday which made some significant improvements to the amp modeling across the board. Whereas on Helix all the amps that were there in 2015 are unchanged, which results in a weird situation where all the classic vox/fender/marshall/mesa amps that people really care about don't sound nearly as good as the newer random custom amp models on that platform.

What finally cracked the code on the digital stuff for me was setting up my signal chain and amps the way my analog rig was set up i.e. a virtual "pedalboard" into the front of two amps + cabs in stereo (I monitor with studio monitors at home and IEMs live so stereo is important to me). A lot of guys put wet fx after the amps and cabs which is fine for when the amp is cranked up but a lot of classic sounds are pedals > amp because the amp responds in a different way when the wet effects hit the front of the amps. You won't find the latest $300 boutique tube screamer clone but there's tons of drive pedals in there covering pretty much all the different circuits, and some boutique ones, i.e. 1981 DRV, JHS Morning Glory, Horizon Precision Drive, Amp Eleven, Lovepedal, Venuram Jan Ray, ODR-1, Suhr Riot, King of Tone, Timmy, etc. Their quality is much better than Helix's drives imo.

Fractal has a feature called "per preset performance controls" which is a page with 10 controllers that you can assign to any parameter on a preset, which gives you quick access to those knobs if you like to mess with settings on the fly like on a pedalboard. I don't use the feature too often because with the channels feature I can just switch channels instead of having to reach down and turn a knob, but it's still a useful tool for doing the analog delay runaway feedback spaceship noises thing for example.

The biggest hurdle for you and everyone else making the switch from playing through live cabs in the room with them is always the monitoring. When you run direct with an amp model and cab block you're recreating the signal from a mic on a cab in another room, monitored through whatever speakers you're using, like being in the control room of a studio while the amp is mic'd up in the live room. This is a very different sound than a cranked up live cab in the room with you and many people mistakenly blame the modeler for the difference. Apparently they expect the modeler to magically transform their headphones or PC speakers into a cranked 412 cab in the room with them.

If I were in your shoes I would start by just using the FM9 to replace your pedals, either running it straight into the front of your existing amp if that's how you run your pedalboard, or in 4 cable method (4CM) if you use your amp's effects loop. That way you're starting slow and not making too many changes at once. Learn the UI, learn how to set up the footswitches the way you like (I use a combination of scenes and per-preset placeholder footswitches like a pedalboard). Then you can try running an amp model straight into your amp's power amp i.e. bypass your amp's preamp section. Then the next step is either going fully direct into studio monitors, or running the Fractal amp models into a good clean power amp and your existing cabs.
 
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strabes said:
The biggest hurdle for you and everyone else making the switch from playing through live cabs in the room with them is always the monitoring. When you run direct with an amp model and cab block you're recreating the signal from a mic on a cab in another room, monitored through whatever speakers you're using, like being in the control room of a studio while the amp is mic'd up in the live room. This is a very different sound than a cranked up live cab in the room with you and many people mistakenly blame the modeler for the difference. Apparently they expect the modeler to magically transform their headphones or PC speakers into a cranked 412 cab in the room with them.
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Thank you for taking the time to write all of that out for me. It's very helpful, especially knowing that the drives are flexible.

Regarding this part, is it true that a FRFR speaker (like a Fender FR10/12) can get some of that feeling of the "amp in the room" back? Sounding like studio tracks is part of the appeal, I know -- being able to polish something up and making it sound the same everywhere -- but can fractal still get that... "chewiness" (maybe that's the wrong word) and near-instant response of playing through an amp live? Part of me is worried, I suppose, that I'll just spend more time on the computer trying to recreate something the device isn't meant to do instead of actually playing my guitar. Even if this is a more rational route for me, I guess I worry it'll be less "fun" to play, if that makes sense. I'm not at the phase of playing guitar to make money; it still needs to feel wholly enjoyable.

And while I've got you all here, how much is latency a factor in playing? When I do a Neural DSP preset on my audio interface on my computer it sounds impressive, but there is just the slightest hint of lag time that messes with my head, even at low buffer settings. I imagine it could be something someone gets used to, but again -- just trying to sus out exactly what I will be giving up if I make the switch, since it would be a big investment.
 
Following on from @strabes comment about how he finds the Fractal products much better in keeping those classic amps alive which have lived in the Fractalverse for some time: The reason I switched from a Helix to the FM9 was that I found I was buying more and more presets and IR's to try and find "my sound" - somewhere between that classic Marshall tone and higher gain Mesa (think Dream Theater / John Petrucci). Six months with the FM9, and I have never been happier - I have about three presets that I base 90% of my playing on—a clean Fender to Dumble ODS-driven sound for more Blues sets. A classic Marshall (okay, Friedman, but it sounds so good) stack for Blues Rock and Southern Rock and currently waiting to try out Firmware 7 to see if I can separate the Mesa JP2C+ or the SLO100 for my higher gain needs.

Having access to that in the amp world would cost me my marriage, and other modellers just don't seem to have the DNA of British Amps or some of the more controllable high-gain heads like the Mesa Mark series.

Your questions just above - heard lots of good things about the Fender FR speakers and never had any issue with latency on my FM9.

Good luck.
 
j_holt said:
I'll just spend more time on the computer trying to recreate something the device isn't meant to do instead of actually playing my guitar
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IMO you're correct. Trying to make an FRFR sound like a live guitar cab next to you is pretty much futile. No matter what you tweak you're still taking the signal from a "mic on a cab in another room" and making that louder. The good news is that this is the paradigm for pretty much every recorded guitar tone you've ever heard, and pretty much every live guitar tone you've ever heard through a PA. So you have a good target to shoot for when running direct and recreating recorded tones. Studio monitors and acoustic treatment are the best tools for that job, just like when recording real amps in any studio in the world.

The bottom line is: if you want the Fractal to sound like you're playing through a live guitar cab in the room with you, disable the cab block and run an amp model into a good power amp and live guitar cab in the room with you.

j_holt said:
And while I've got you all here, how much is latency a factor in playing? When I do a Neural DSP preset on my audio interface on my computer it sounds impressive, but there is just the slightest hint of lag time that messes with my head, even at low buffer settings
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Not a factor at all. See here for more info. Sound travels about 1ft per ms so a few ms of latency is imperceptible. In fact when I monitor the Fractal with headphones I experience less "latency" than I would if my ear were a few feet from a real guitar cab with a 100% analog dry signal path. So it's just not worth thinking about in this context.

The latency you're experiencing with Neural is due to the RTL of your interface and will not be comparable to a dedicated DSP processor like Fractal, Helix, etc.
 
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Fractal gear doesn’t model “sounds.” It models amplifiers. If your favorite Indie players used amps to get their tone, then you can use Fractal amp models to dial in those sounds.

And dynamics? If you set your gain right, Fractal gear can swoop and soar as well as the best “real” amp.
 
Welcome to the forum

As guitar players I think we always find our own sound regardless of what we're playing through. The key I think is to just use your ears and adjust until it sounds right. That process is the same whether you're using a tube amp and pedals, or a fully modelled rig - I don't think anyone turns on a valve amp and a drive pedal and just plays, happy with the sound - we tweak the gain, the EQ, presence, master volume, the time, feedback anx mix on the delay - even the Q on a wah (if you have one that's selectable) until it's to our taste and sounds good to us. It's no different with modelled gear.

Just this week I tried a Marshall preset that was kindly shared by one of the members of the forum (thank you @Burgs!) but I didn't just load it up and play, I tweaked the gain, the IR and a few other settings until it felt right to me. Last night I used it at volume with the band, tweaked some more and it now has more of my "flavor" as you put it - and I'll add, it sounds bloody good! Unsurprisingly it's similar to many of my other presets - cos it's set up the way I like it, and that I guess is my soun

My point is that this is as achievable on the FM9 as it is with the physical amps & pedals, and in a Pepsi challenge I dare say most people wouldn't be able to tell which is which.

Dynamics are all there too!
 
I sound like me no matter what rig I play. Further, "my" sound changes over time as I spend time turning knobs (real or virtual) and experimenting. Overall I would say that I am far happier with my sound since I started using Fractal gear (about 10 years ago w/ the AXE 2). I have spent a LOT of time A/B'ing between Fractal and real amps, and have gotten better tones from both as part of that process. I could not be happier with the FM9, and am using amp models I NEVER would have thought I would like.
 
I had a room full of great tube amps when I bought my first fractal Axe FXII. Six months later I realized I hadn’t touched any of the tube amps….. shortly after that, I got rid of them all. With Fractal you can match exactly any recorded guitar sound you hear, and you can sculpt sounds that you cannot get with normal tube amp rigs. For me, dialing in amazing tones has been a big part of the fun. I’ll give you two examples:

Back in the 80s, I used BC rich guitars and a Hiwatt 100 watt amp. The BC Riches had preamps built in, and when you throw a switch, the preamp tubes in the amp got slammed with high voltage (I can’t remember the output, but something like 8v from 2.5v off the pup). This caused instant panic in the Hiwatt. Out pops this thick sweet lead tone - fat, fat, fat. It took me a while, but I did manage to reproduce that sound by messing with the Hiwatt settings, different Drives, and eq. I never use it, because it sucks compared to other tones I can get from the Fractal. But I did dial it in.

Second: I used to own a Roland AP-7 Jet Phaser. Awesome sound. Like most novel effects, I got bored with it and GAVE IT to a friend. Well, now you can’t buy one for less than hundreds of dollars - so I dialed one in on the fractal. Sounds great, and gets used in 2 or 3 tunes over three sets.

Point is: if you can hear it in your head, you can probably dial it in on an FM9. (And have a hell of a lot of fun in the process).

Sub point: If I were still playing with hardware instead of digital ware, my “rigs” would cost many many thousands (how much does a Dumble amp cost? Cornford MK50? High end speakers? “Pedals”? Routing and control?).

You just can’t beat it.
Take the plunge, the water is F.I.N.E. Fine.
😁
 
Also, the way I A/B amps with the FM9 is to run the amps in the FM9 loop. So I can do this in real time, with the same cab IR. This makes it as apples-to-apples as possible, and instantaneous. I dial and dial and then figure out at some point that I'm thinking I'm playing the amp, but I'm actually playing the FM9 model. At the end, both the amp and the model sound better to me than where I started.

The key to this is getting a cab IR that really works well. That is probably 60% of the tone and dynamic response. Worth spending a lot of time with the real amp and a load box finding what the right IR is for you.

At this point I almost never play the amps, and only keep them around for when I want to remember exactly how they sound. And for old times' sake.

FM9 Full Rack Diagram.jpg83E2C1AE-41C5-4E08-BD92-952B24A71BD7_1_105_c.jpeg
 
Well folks, tonight I played a gig out at a small club through a 68' Fender Reverb Deluxe reissue on the backline. It sounded absolutely awesome. Just a roaring wall of sound. When I was driving home I realized that I love that amp, but that if I got one the chances I'd have to turn it up like that would be relatively rare (a few times a month). I think the idea of having access to a thick sound like that at a reasonable level has got me pretty close to the finish line, though it'll be hard to say goodbye to my pedalboard piece by piece. It is insane to me that the tech in Fractal land is so good that this is even an apples-to-digital apples decision for me.
 
j_holt said:
Well folks, tonight I played a gig out at a small club through a 68' Fender Reverb Deluxe reissue on the backline. It sounded absolutely awesome. Just a roaring wall of sound. When I was driving home I realized that I love that amp, but that if I got one the chances I'd have to turn it up like that would be relatively rare (a few times a month). I think the idea of having access to a thick sound like that at a reasonable level has got me pretty close to the finish line, though it'll be hard to say goodbye to my pedalboard piece by piece. It is insane to me that the tech in Fractal land is so good that this is even an apples-to-digital apples decision for me.
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While there is no substitute for a real amp pushing a real cab at the right volume, you're on right track when you realize that the ability to get that sound at a more reasonable volume - any time - is the biggest benefit of modeling. And the quality of the same is why it's worth coming to Fractal. You will still be able to crank it up loud at the gig!

I still have my Mesa Mark IV head and custom 2x12 that I have loved for about 17 years now. It has so many sounds and I have a personal connection with it, having played some really awesome gigs and made wonderful memories. While I have no plans to sell it, I will say this:

What sold me was A/Bing my sounds from a recent pro studio track we did with my real amp. I totally NAILED the tone and feel of my real rig in the FM9 going direct to tape. The band couldn't tell the difference and frankly, neither could I. THAT was and still is my sound, one of them anyway

Give yourself the pleasure of enjoying that DRRI, and a plethora of other amps you can try whenever you feel like it.
 
Last question for you lovely, helpful people before I try to make my choices: am I right that the newest FM9 is probably the most “future proof” investment that’s not the rack unit? The price point of the FM3 is tempting but it does seem the FM9 has a bit more going on that makes it a better value, namely a bit more power under the hood. Also having a bunch of foot switches on tap makes me think I can set an assortment of amps presets and effects on some switches and just rock a preset or two or all night instead of worrying about menus while performing.
 
I'd recommend looking for a unit that does what you'd like plus a bit more in case you come up with something new, and has solid support from the manufacturer. As far as "future proof", the offerings just keep getting better. It's easy to think that you bought the wrong thing, or bought too soon, with the modeler arms-race happening.

There are plenty of people using the FM3, including pros. The size is a huge advantage. Most of us seem to use a tiny fraction of the FM9 features, but everyone seems able to use all of the processor power and still could use more. Could we make do with less? Probably. But we're greedy.
 
j_holt said:
Last question for you lovely, helpful people before I try to make my choices: am I right that the newest FM9 is probably the most “future proof” investment that’s not the rack unit? The price point of the FM3 is tempting but it does seem the FM9 has a bit more going on that makes it a better value, namely a bit more power under the hood. Also having a bunch of foot switches on tap makes me think I can set an assortment of amps presets and effects on some switches and just rock a preset or two or all night instead of worrying about menus while performing.
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Just to be clear, it's 2X the processing power... Depending on how you use it, that can be very important.

Additionally, because of the smart use of multiple cores where some resources (Delay, Reverb, Amp) each run on a dedicated core it can seem even more powerful.

I have run some presets on FM9 that use less CPU than they do on the Axe Fx III.
 
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