Development with the next firmware

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gaaarfild said:
let's not forget, that the price of the cheapest model of FA is almost the same as the flagship models of its competitors. Let alone the flagship model of FA, which is almost 3 times more
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Are you in EU?
Because in US the price of FM9 is about the same Fender asks for their Tonemaster modeler, and with a few hundred dollars more you'll get a
flagship. FM3 is $1100 - which competitor has flagship around this price? None. L6 and NDSP top products stuff priced same as FM9 while being so much less powerful and flexible.
We are not calling Hotone an "FA competitor", right?... Let's not do that :) Maybe Line6 Stomp is a competitor for FM3, but only in case you need some very basic presets and effects.

So this comment doesn't really stand, sorry. The world is quite big. For EU - yes, maybe.

gaaarfild said:
And this price includes not only the hardware but also frequent updates. Because when people buy a gear, they also consider, what's included in this price. Software updates are also one of the factors. It's not a free perk. It's a price-forming factor.
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Well, I only can tell for myself and people I know, but only NDSP people I know ever considered updates as a part of the price. And guess what - they've been f*d big time. Nobody ever I dare to say bought Line6 stuff expecting it to keep providing updates.

But wait, there is more. Updates we receive for FAS are not simply "patches" or "new amp models". Not even "liquid profiling" is close to what we have here.
Quite literally we have updates which qualify as new OS versions. They change so much no other company ever changes in their existing products. It's more like a new version of Windows than a "security and functionality improvements" updates.

So why I can agree - I don't want to, but I can agree that updates should be free, it is clear that they should be free only to a particular point. What we get is actually extra and any other company would sell it as "subscription-based updates". We get it for free.
 
A few weeks ago, FM3 firmware was almost ready for public beta. Then we made the decision to include the latest amp modeling updates. Once the new Axe-Fx firmware is released, the FM3 firmware will be cleared for final development and public beta release.
 
FM3 users in this forum have been genuinely excited about the pending update. Guys have been posting harmless memes all in good fun. If that bothers you don’t read or participate in the thread. Too many people on this forum getting their panties in a bunch over trivial comments and memes. If people were posting truly harmful or hateful comments I’d understand but that’s not happening here. Personally I find the most offensive posts are ones suggesting that updates are free when the truth is we paid for the updates upfront when we purchased the product.
 
I watch this thread to see when the latest patch comes out. Thank you fractal for keeping our product fresh!!! There is no gadget in my life that stays as relevant and that’s thanks to the folks at fractal. !!
 
Admin M@ said:
A few weeks ago, FM3 firmware was almost ready for public beta. Then we made the decision to include the latest amp modeling updates. Once the new Axe-Fx firmware is released, the FM3 firmware will be cleared for final development and public beta release.
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This thread has reached 27k views, I should never have asked this question...sorry!
Take the time you need, we will all arrive at Christmas at the same time and the earth will not stop spinning, that's for sure!
Thank you FAS for all the hard work you do for us, it is really appreciated!
 
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jastan said:
Personally I find the most offensive posts are ones suggesting that updates are free when the truth is we paid for the updates upfront when we purchased the product.
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Out of sheer curiosity - what exactly made you think updates are included in price? Let's take a look at https://www.fractalaudio.com/fm3/, and then you can compare it with NSDP, for example, which is clearly says updates are part of the product and will continue to be provided.
Everyone should expect bugs to be fixed and maybe some improvements to be added, for any product, but why assume that many years of development work after the product launch is something that is also paid for already.
I guess this discussion will not take us anywhere, but I feel that it is not fair to demand updates where nobody promised any.
 
Chromatizm said:
Out of sheer curiosity - what exactly made you think updates are included in price? Let's take a look at https://www.fractalaudio.com/fm3/, and then you can compare it with NSDP, for example, which is clearly says updates are part of the product and will continue to be provided.
Everyone should expect bugs to be fixed and maybe some improvements to be added, for any product, but why assume that many years of development work after the product launch is something that is also paid for already.
I guess this discussion will not take us anywhere, but I feel that it is not fair to demand updates where nobody promised any.
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Because if they weren't included we'd be charged for the updates.
 
jastan said:
Because if they weren't included we'd be charged for the updates.
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Pretty sure they don't charge for updates because that's a crappy business model. Line 6 used to charge for updates, and stopped because it was a terrible practice. It has nothing to do with charging us up front. How much of the $999 for the FM3 is for updates? If the Axe 3 and FM3 have feature parity, but the FM3 is over $1000 cheaper, are the Axe 3 owners subsidizing the FM3 owners? Is someone who purchases a used FM3 also paying up front for updates. Seriously, even the most superficial analysis of your assertion pokes gaping holes in it.
 
jastan said:
FM3 users in this forum have been genuinely excited about the pending update. Guys have been posting harmless memes all in good fun. If that bothers you don’t read or participate in the thread. Too many people on this forum getting their panties in a bunch over trivial comments and memes. If people were posting truly harmful or hateful comments I’d understand but that’s not happening here. Personally I find the most offensive posts are ones suggesting that updates are free when the truth is we paid for the updates upfront when we purchased the product.
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I partly agree about the "free" narrative, or a radical version of it. Of course buying fm 3 comes with the expectation of some updates. It's pretty much part of the sale in 2024, especially Fractal's own precedent. That said, specific update schedules and content seem more vague in terms of what can arguably be seen as "implicitly expected". I believe several updates to core amp modelling can be seen as part of the entry price, but a guarantee of gapless, not really, for example.

I would also say that for me a radical version of "it's free" narrative tends to set up this dynamic where one is tempted to be thankful the same way as if they're getting gifts, when that is not the case. I prefer some level of thankful attitude, don't get me wrong. But to speak of "gifts" seems to me misplaced considering what such an act involves and why it's meaningful in the first place.

(Also some"pay to unlock features" seem to be coming back for some units. Like kemper profile player).

All that said, I do believe that "not participating" in threads like this is not ideal as a solution, at least assuming there can be better. I understand that one can just sit out. But if we are members of a forum, there can also be wider considerations. For example, I think it's sad that so much energy goes into "when when when when omg lelz maybe today maybe tomorrow omg why why when lelz" posts (whether they come from me too btw). There is a lot already in the fm3 we could more so focus on. A lot that is more so based on us being creative with the unit.

If the fm3 section was more so about that, I think the climate and forum culture would be overall better off. Probably better for people at fractal too, or so it seems to me, even if the constant questioning builds hype.
 
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Hapless said:
Pretty sure they don't charge for updates because that's a crappy business model. Line 6 used to charge for updates, and stopped because it was a terrible practice. It has nothing to do with charging us up front. How much of the $999 for the FM3 is for updates? If the Axe 3 and FM3 have feature parity, but the FM3 is over $1000 cheaper, are the Axe 3 owners subsidizing the FM3 owners? Is someone who purchases a used FM3 also paying up front for updates. Seriously, even the most superficial analysis of your assertion pokes gaping holes in it.
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I think it’s reasonable to expect updates for bug fixes throughout the life of the product. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect new features. When a company releases a product they factor in the cost of having a person or persons to fix issues that come up. How long the company supports a product is up to them. I’m unclear about your point regarding parity between the units. The extra money is for more DSP and i/o. I’d be curious to know which product they sell more of and which has the better margins.
 
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If I made a product like the AxIII/Fm9/Fm3, I'd be proud as punch and genuinely excited.

Pretty much all of what's been on here has been fervent enuthusiasm for the product. ~I myself have been slightly overzealous joining in, but I gotta say, I'm super excited about FW8 release!

Posting to this page or reading it, at least, feels like I'm in a big bath with you all after a Rugby match, drinking beer, and singing songs... just a huge community vibe! Big Love everyone, It's coming guys... It's coming! WoooHoo!
 
Hapless said:
Pretty sure they don't charge for updates because that's a crappy business model. Line 6 used to charge for updates, and stopped because it was a terrible practice. It has nothing to do with charging us up front. How much of the $999 for the FM3 is for updates? If the Axe 3 and FM3 have feature parity, but the FM3 is over $1000 cheaper, are the Axe 3 owners subsidizing the FM3 owners? Is someone who purchases a used FM3 also paying up front for updates. Seriously, even the most superficial analysis of your assertion pokes gaping holes in it.
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Dear lord, can you even imagine? If that was the case I would be using any unit besides the one that wants to charge me for updates.
 
Pretty sure they don't charge for updates because that's a crappy business model. Line 6 used to charge for updates, and stopped because it was a terrible practice. It has nothing to do with charging us up front. How much of the $999 for the FM3 is for updates? If the Axe 3 and FM3 have feature parity, but the FM3 is over $1000 cheaper, are the Axe 3 owners subsidizing the FM3 owners? Is someone who purchases a used FM3 also paying up front for updates. Seriously, even the most superficial analysis of your assertion pokes gaping holes in it.
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To be fair FAS gear is the most expensive because it is the best and it is the best not just because of superior hardware but (mostly) because of superior software which can only reach that level through rigorous re-evaluation and updating. Look how far the latest gen units have come since their release. So it's an integral part of what makes FAS the superior choice and why it justifies the price
It's also the reason for the longevity of FAS devices and why they don't get surpassed easily by new gear which also adds to their value and high price
 
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ConstantM said:
To be fair FAS gear is the most expensive because it is the best and it is the best not just because of superior hardware but (mostly) because of superior software which can only reach that level through rigorous re-evaluation and updating. Look how far the latest gen units have come since their release. So it's an integral part of what makes FAS the superior choice and why it justifies the price
It's also the reason for the longevity of FAS devices and why they don't get surpassed easily by new gear which also adds to their value and high price
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I think you missed the comment I was responding to ... it was discussing the implications of FAS regularly charging for its updates, not the price of the units themselves. In price alone the FM3 is one of the cheaper options
 
The constant software development and product improvement are part of what drew me to Fractal (from using a Helix). I believe it is possible for more than one thing to be true at once. It is possible to be excited about forthcoming new features, and (admittedly impatient or disappointed at times with the wait), while also acknowledging the hard work going on behind the scenes by the Fractal team. It should be ok to express these feelings of excitement and/or frustration on this forum, because we all feel it at one time or another. We should be allowed to express ourselves without the almost immediately being admonished as ungrateful or unappreciative. That is not the case (speaking for myself anyway). We are all passionate about our Fractal gear, or we wouldn't bother engaging in this forum. Seeing the new features and improvements implemented on other units and being demoed on YouTube only heighten the anticipation.
 
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Hapless said:
It has nothing to do with charging us up front
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Hapless said:
Seriously, even the most superficial analysis of your assertion pokes gaping holes in it.
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Of course it has to do with the cost up front. It seems a safe bet that, within a typical company offering FW feature updates without specific charge:
  • Employees still get paid when they work on FW updates.
  • FW update effort costs are not typically treated (in the accounting sense) as some sort of charity work.
  • The cost of effort spent on FW updates is carefully considered in a company's revenue / pricing models to assure its success and survival as a business.
Though I understand why people use the word "free" in this respect, and why a company might use that word in related marketing material etc, imo, it's an inaccurate term (like yur mama said: "few things in life are truely free"). - but, because I do not necessarily agree with this particular use of the term "free updates" does not mean I'm not appreciative of getting good value for money in an end to end ownership experience with a given product.

wrt Fractal: my experience has been that their business model provides tremendous value to me as a customer. I feel that I get much more functionality per $ spent than any other gear I've ever purchased - its one of, if not thee best purchase experience I've ever had with any product.
 
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