Cutting Thru The Mix

[Bruce Sokolovic]

I play in a 5-piece cover band with another guitarist who is using a Les Paul and Fender Blues Junior. So it's a dense mix. I've been using modelers for the last 7 years - first Helix, then Quad Cortex the last two years, now an FM9 will get its first gig this Friday. Feedback from the audience has always been they can't hear me, only the drums and that Blues Junior. I'm typically using a Powercab112+ in Flat/Raw mode - so it's essentially a powered 1x12 guitar cabinet. Works pretty good that way and compares well with my Fender amps using Celestion speakers (that .

What I think is happening is all related to gain staging and stage volume. I tend to keep my stage volume down, doing my part to not cause audience hearing damage, and so the bar tenders can hear their orders. So that's probably part of why I disappear in the mix, I'm just not loud enough.

But possibly another reason is gain staging. I set my preset levels so I'm mostly sending 0dB output levels on my clean, crunch and distortion scenes/patches. Then I set my stage amp to the level needed for the room. What I think happens is the clean tone is OK, but as soon as I add some dirt, the compression takes over and makes my guitar disappear in the mix.

So I'm going to try something new with the FM9 in this first gig. I'm setting my clean level at -3dB on the preset output meters. Then I'm going to set my crunch and distortion patches so that when I turn my guitar volume down enough that the tone cleans up, I'm getting the same -3dB on the preset output - clean is matched to clean in the patch/scene.

Now I'm hoping that when I add the dirt, the overall level will go up instead of down and will cut through the mix better. I'm also aware that 700-1000 Hz mid boost will help with the mix, and am aware of preamp vs. power amp distortion and sag, etc. I'm taking that into consideration too.

Really looking forward to giving this new (to me) FM9 a ride.

I think you had it right the first time. Simple volume is causing you to disappear in the mix and you are not playing with folks schooled enough to turn down so others can be heard. All my sounds come out at line level somewhere around -3db or so. As long as it is a good healthy signal, it should be fine. You’d have a gain staging issue if it were pissing in or blowing the meter on your mixer into the red constantly. The FM9 has a volume block where you can adjust your volume either with a pedal or a simple on off button. That is what I do, a simple 2dB attenuation when I just turn off when I need to be a little louder.

Get your team to be team players.

 

[Joshua_L]

Here;s the thing to listen for. He's not using a lot of gain. He keeps bright switches on and his tones are very bright on their own listen to this clips at the same volume you would perform a gig at live and train your ears to hear that thing.

I don’t hear overly bright frequencies. The highs are really well balanced to get the right sizzle.

What I really noticed is that what’s keep the tone balanced is the low amount of low frequencies.
Again perfectly dialed.

Sounds full through a mix and not that thin/high piercing when played on its own.

Great videos.

 

[PSea]

Something to consider for full band mix that i rarely see mentioned is adjusting the OTHER instruments too. Its often not enough to keep tweaking a single instrument to force it through, consider how the other instruments are EQ'd and that they may need to be addressed to make the whole sound better.

As others have said, midrange is where the guitar lives. If you suck it out it will get lost. If you think your tone is too shrill when heard on its own then it will likely sound better in the mix.

i couldnt ageee more w/ this. unfortunately, short of just taking over the other guitar's gear and doing it myself, the guy is so damn obstinent and refusing of any help, it's borderline infuriating. ive spent hours typing specific instructions. ive spent hours on the phone explaining signal chains and hours pre-practice trying to get him to make changes. he couldnt even be bothered to plug his guitar petal's output into his amp's power amp input. every response is "i know." ive given up on the guy.

 

[Davus PG]

Something to consider for full band mix that i rarely see mentioned is adjusting the OTHER instruments too. Its often not enough to keep tweaking a single instrument to force it through, consider how the other instruments are EQ'd and that they may need to be addressed to make the whole sound better.

I think this is a huge factor. I play in a 2 guitar indie/rock covers band and over the past 7 or 8 years have spent countless hours reading posts on the forum, trying different presets, IRs, watching YT videos and completing Cooper's masterclass to improve my tone and get the best results for any given song we're playing. What makes it harder than it should be though is that our rhythm guitarist is a "3 tone" player. He has a clean, crunch and a lead tone and just a couple of variants for specific sections of 2 songs we play. His guitar is a vintage Ibanez 335 copy with all controls at 10 and the volume is never backed off. He currently plays through a Helix and those core tones are thick and punchy. Great for the backbone of a song, but it can be hard for me to be heard at times and when it comes to sections where things need to be nuanced it just doesn't work. The breakthroughs were reducing the gain on my presets - in some cases a lot, convincing him to create a couple more options to dial his sound back a bit, and to think of our tones as 2 halves of the overall guitar sound. That's enabled me to sit better in the mix without resorting to dB boosts, and has improved our sound as a band.

I should also add that switching from a Plexi model to the 5F8 Tweed Bright made a massive difference to my sound. To my ears it gives a lot more punch, and with the use of drive blocks, the amp boost and guitar pickup/volume changes can go from clean to nasty and everywhere between. I find the Klone particularly well suited to it.

 

[Jipps0525]

I think this is a huge factor. I play in a 2 guitar indie/rock covers band and over the past 7 or 8 years have spent countless hours reading posts on the forum, trying different presets, IRs, watching YT videos and completing Cooper's masterclass to improve my tone and get the best results for any given song we're playing. What makes it harder than it should be though is that our rhythm guitarist is a "3 tone" player. He has a clean, crunch and a lead tone and just a couple of variants for specific sections of 2 songs we play. His guitar is a vintage Ibanez 335 copy with all controls at 10 and the volume is never backed off. He currently plays through a Helix and those core tones are thick and punchy. Great for the backbone of a song, but it can be hard for me to be heard at times and when it comes to sections where things need to be nuanced it just doesn't work. The breakthroughs were reducing the gain on my presets - in some cases a lot, convincing him to create a couple more options to dial his sound back a bit, and to think of our tones as 2 halves of the overall guitar sound. That's enabled me to sit better in the mix without resorting to dB boosts, and has improved our sound as a band.

I should also add that switching from a Plexi model to the 5F8 Tweed Bright made a massive difference to my sound. To my ears it gives a lot more punch, and with the use of drive blocks, the amp boost and guitar pickup/volume changes can go from clean to nasty and everywhere between. I find the Klone particularly well suited to it.

The keith urban 5F8 Tweed model is pretty gnarly

 

[Goonie]

i couldnt ageee more w/ this. unfortunately, short of just taking over the other guitar's gear and doing it myself, the guy is so damn obstinent and refusing of any help, it's borderline infuriating. ive spent hours typing specific instructions. ive spent hours on the phone explaining signal chains and hours pre-practice trying to get him to make changes. he couldnt even be bothered to plug his guitar petal's output into his amp's power amp input. every response is "i know." ive given up on the guy.

I know the feeling. It's frustrating and I have personally moved on from bands because of this. I'm the type of guy that plays pretty conservative and only when things need played. I also, more times than not, get told to "turn up" because my volume is too low. I don't like to blast ear holes.
Anyway, people typically resist change and get set in their ways. That's one thing that cannot happen in a band environment. In the past I've had guitarists that refuse to plug into the PA and would rather blast their 4x12 from the stage. Also had a bassist that wouldn't go direct, would also ride his volume knob all night and not EQ anything.
I feel like alot of it is a "control thing". The tone/volume/mix is out of their hands once it hits the mixer.
Ultimately, the band needs to do what's best for the mix and trust eachother or it'll never sound good.
Maybe have everyone plug into the mixer and record the output of that. What sounds good on your own, will not sound good together.
Now days, I tend to be the only guitarist in the band to eliminate some issues. I'd rather have fun and play tunes than trying to blend with another guitarist all night then continue to worry over it all week until practice or gig again. Most times, a drummer and bassist can cover that rhythm section up while you're playing leads.

 

[millman]

i couldnt ageee more w/ this. unfortunately, short of just taking over the other guitar's gear and doing it myself, the guy is so damn obstinent and refusing of any help, it's borderline infuriating. ive spent hours typing specific instructions. ive spent hours on the phone explaining signal chains and hours pre-practice trying to get him to make changes. he couldnt even be bothered to plug his guitar petal's output into his amp's power amp input. every response is "i know." ive given up on the guy.

You could try focusing your sound in a smaller frequency range or boosting mids when you need to stand out: lead lines, solo, etc. I’ve seen people comment negatively on Petrucci’s isolated guitar as being really narrowly focused but it cuts through quite nicely.

The more instruments you play along side that sit in the same frequency range: piano, acoustic guitar, electric guitar. The more you’ll need to get creative to cut through.

 

[Goonie]

You could try focusing your sound in a smaller frequency range or boosting mids when you need to stand out: lead lines, solo, etc. I’ve seen people comment negatively on Petrucci’s isolated guitar as being really narrowly focused but it cuts through quite nicely.

The more instruments you play along side that sit in the same frequency range: piano, acoustic guitar, electric guitar. The more you’ll need to get creative to cut through.

I've been trying for that @Enzee Neil Zaza tone for quite a while now.

 

[AlexMania]

What's worked well for me is to configure my rhythm and boosted volumes using my clean sound only (clean uncolored volume boost hard stop). Once those are where I want them, I add OD'a, delays, and whatever else.

 

[Jipps0525]

Honestly OP I agree with @Bruce Sokolovic that it’s most likely a volume thing. Little
More mids is always good but the amount of
Times at my gigs where ppl tell me they can’t hear my guitar, I bump up input 1 on my fractal fm9 or the mixing board and boom
No more complaints. Keep in mind every situation is a little different; my band always mixes the lead singers vocals to be way higher volume wise and idk why they do that and also you have no idea what kind of hearing loss the person might have. Maybe their hearing is weaker in the frequencies where the guitar lives. I’ve always started my volume low because I never wanted to be the guitarist who’s too loud stereotype. But lately I’ve said screw it and bump up my input 1 a bit and as long as no one is saying it’s too loud you’re golden.

 

[Bruce Sokolovic]

Honestly OP I agree with @Bruce Sokolovic that it’s most likely a volume thing. Little
More mids is always good but the amount of
Times at my gigs where ppl tell me they can’t hear my guitar, I bump up input 1 on my fractal fm9 or the mixing board and boom
No more complaints. Keep in mind every situation is a little different; my band always mixes the lead singers vocals to be way higher volume wise and idk why they do that and also you have no idea what kind of hearing loss the person might have. Maybe their hearing is weaker in the frequencies where the guitar lives. I’ve always started my volume low because I never wanted to be the guitarist who’s too loud stereotype. But lately I’ve said screw it and bump up my input 1 a bit and as long as no one is saying it’s too loud you’re golden.

I really wish more people would embrace a silent stage. Took me a while but for me it is so much better, and better for my already ringing ears.

 

[Jipps0525]

I really wish more people would embrace a silent stage. Took me a while but for me it is so much better, and better for my already ringing ears.

Absolutely. This was my favorite thing about my agency top 40 band. All in ears and was awesome. But in my experience, unless everyone is in ears, it won’t work. But it’s just such a cool unique experience when the whole band is in ears and silent stage, it cuts out all that volume BS haha

 

[gaaarfild]

All in the mids. And use less gain. I learned it pretty hard back in the 90's. I had a full refrigerator rack with a quad preamp all the fixin's, someone auditioned for another guitarist in the band and had a Slash half stack, and he handed me my lunch. I couldn't get my rig loud enough. No matter what I did, couldn't hear me at all.

I have a newbie question. When I reduce the gain, I see a huge dynamics change. Tapping is not working that well, and I generally start to miss some proper pinch harmonics. How do you solve this issue if you even have one?

 

[elvis]

I have a newbie question. When I reduce the gain, I see a huge dynamics change. Tapping is not working that well, and I generally start to miss some proper pinch harmonics. How do you solve this issue if you even have one?

100% the normal question. Yes, reducing gain increases dynamics. This is solved with focus on technique. When I started pushing my gain to as low as I could stand, it was painful. It helped a lot to practice without an amp. You should be able to get most of this sorted with focus. Where you simply cannot, add temporary gain. Engage a gain block and then turn it off when it's not absolutely required.

 

[elvis]

One REALLY cool thing that you get with lower gain/more dynamics is that your guitar volume knob starts to DO STUFF. You can back off a little to clean up, you can actually affect your volume with it, so you can mix better with other instruments across song dynamic changes. It becomes a whole thing. I rarely change scenes anymore because I can do most of what I need with guitar volume.

 

[bdrepko]

I have a newbie question. When I reduce the gain, I see a huge dynamics change. Tapping is not working that well, and I generally start to miss some proper pinch harmonics. How do you solve this issue if you even have one?

A little bit of compression can help. But it's mostly technique.

 

[DLC86]

But it's mostly technique.

Definitely

 

[Lance Holland]

Absolutely. This was my favorite thing about my agency top 40 band. All in ears and was awesome. But in my experience, unless everyone is in ears, it won’t work. But it’s just such a cool unique experience when the whole band is in ears and silent stage, it cuts out all that volume BS haha

In my cover band, I'm the only one that is on IEMs at the moment. I have physical issues with my ears and must keep my levels in control or face serious damage to them. But it works fine. If anything, I think the other members are starting to come around to getting their own IEMs as it would make our stage mix 100,000x easier to set up. Regardless, we have no problems at all running a mix of wedges and my IEMs.

 

[Jipps0525]

In my cover band, I'm the only one that is on IEMs at the moment. I have physical issues with my ears and must keep my levels in control or face serious damage to them. But it works fine. If anything, I think the other members are starting to come around to getting their own IEMs as it would make our stage mix 100,000x easier to set up. Regardless, we have no problems at all running a mix of wedges and my IEMs.

That’s awesome you could make that work I’ve never had such luck with that strategy

 

[PSea]

Happy to report a very different experience w the fm9 last night. definitely sounded better. many presets still needs tweaking....but boy, it sure is an awesome feeling when you feel things click on stage w the whole band.

APPRECIATE all the input. i think i incorporated quite a few of the suggestions here.