Cut through the mix: something I do not understand

Kingfloyd

Kingfloyd

Inspired
I read that to avoid being lost in the mix, one should reduce gain and be very cautious with effects, namely reverb and delays. I went this way and must say it helped a lot. But I miss what delays and reverb bring into the texture. Then I see that Leon, Burgs, Fremen‘s live patches are excellent and really really wet. How do they avoid being lost in the mix with these wet patches?
i play a real Marshall cab with a power amp (mono) in a trio band (guitar, bass and drums).
 
Fair point. I do reserve the right to eliminate delay and/or reverb on the fly on stage in the heat of battle and often do. The wet stuff that I write into any given patch is usually for self-gratification when I'm on my lonesome in the studio. Reverb is usually the first to go on stage, followed by excessive delay bottom end and repeats. But it's there if the occasion allows.

When I write this stuff I usually play along to a busy generic backing track or two (jtc_guitar and elevated backing tracks are good for this), at stage volume, to see if my little recipe is viable or not. Then there are no, or fewer, surprises on stage or in a rehearsal full of patience-thin band members.
 
A lot of cutting through the mix has to do with EQ. You want to make sure you're carving out space so that the various instruments and vocals are not competing for the same sonic space any more-so than necessary. AND...It's a team effort. EQing your guitar to cut through is great, but you'll enjoy a much higher measure of success if you do the same for everyone/everything involved.
 
GaryB said:
...EQing your guitar to cut through is great, but you'll enjoy a much higher measure of success if you do the same for everyone/everything involved.
Click to expand...
This is so true. It's not about cutting through it's about fitting in. Find your own space in the spectrum and leave space for others. It'll make everything easier to hear and the whole thing more enjoyable for the audience.

Listen to isolated guitar tracks from records you love. You'll find the guitar on its own sounds pretty awful - shrill, nasal, buzzy. A tone that sounds good on its own usually doesn't sound good in a mix and vice versa. So dial in your tone in a full band mix and don't be afraid to make dramatic cuts even if they sound terrible on their own.

But the other component that is also critical, and is often brushed over, is the musical arrangement/composition. If you have another guitarist spend time working on your voicings together so you're occupying different sonic space - very crudely when one of you is playing high up, the other could play low down. But it could also be that one of you only plays two notes of the chord, or one plays a riff while the other plays chords. The worst thing is two guitarists playing the same part. You should also involve the bass and vocals and make sure there is space for both of them - for example the two guitars might play full chords when there is no singing and then play more 'empty' double stops when the singing starts. Get that right first, then find a tone that complements everything else that is going on.
 
Not all of these apply to you but some may help. We have two guitarist, both using Axe III in stereo so cutting thru the mix is a constant challenge. Many good suggestions. EQ so instruments take up different tone space. Cut unnecessary reverbs, delays, distortion all happening simultaneously (when you can). They all rob volume and compete for space in a mix so you have to have a clear path to use them. Two different worlds playing alone jamming and ‘in the mix’ of a band.

I think the element that has helped us the most is dynamics. Have the drummer and bass player ‘chill’ a couple of dB during a lead, instead of the guitarist always having to ‘boost’ or the whole band ‘relaxes’ a dB or two when the singer comes in, etc. You’d be surprised what pops thru the mix.
 
I think for me it’s always come down to the difference between “competing” versus “interplay” in the song arrangement, even in a three-piece rock setting. Sure, the guitar needs are a little different for different styles, but I still find rolling my guitar volume control back during verses (a slight volume drop for sure, but more a “clean up” of my “tone/edge”) is a major help for the song and its overall presentation. With my AFX3 I often use scene changes via foot switching (when I need faster/more accurate changes) instead of my guitar v/c.

In short: everyone playing with a “listen to me” arrangement/attitude rarely works for the song.
 
Live or recording mixes follow the same jigsaw puzzle pieces principle. In order to avoid having a sonic mess you have which instrument dominates a particular frequency band

For example, a reggaeton kick with all that sub bass frequency info is not going to fit together well with a 5 string alembic with all the bass boosted. You will need to notch out those frequencies on one instrument and let the other instrument own that frequency band.

If you approach your notching of instruments, frequency wise they should interlock like a jigsaw puzzle.

Another tip is it's okay for some instruments to be lower volume and more ambient in the mix. It gives your mix a foreground to background kind of cinematic quality rather than having everything screaming along at the same volume.
 
You can cut thru the mix even with reverb, over the years I've learnt a couple tricks to do it right:
  • Cut lows and highs on the reverb, set low cut to 300-600 Hz and high cut to taste, it can go as low as 4000 Hz.
  • Use pre-delay, 80-120 ms is a good starting point usually, but sometimes I go up to 150. Or you can sync it with the tempo, usually 1/16 falls in that range.
 
A lot of great tips in this thread, including EQ being the main focus: Training your ears to hear how that upper-midrange cuts in a mix while making your tone isolated sound brash and almost "annoying" is the key. Make sure you dial in your tones at the volume you will perform at and also use backing tracks to see where the tone fits in the mix and/or pink noise.

to add: How and where you place the effects in the stereo field will also make sure your tones cut through the mix and not get lost. The prime example is if you look at the eruption preset, the reverb is panned to one side. This ensures the dry signal will always get through while the wet effects are coming on a different side of the stereo field.

This is the basis of most WDW rigs. Scott Henderson and Mike Landau also use a Wet/Dry rig where one side is fully wet, the other is fully dry and then they're blended either by FOH or the volume is controlled by the player. Many players utilize an expression pedal blend the wet effects on the fly, including myself.

When playing with a real guitar cabinet, since the back of your legs don't have ears, you'd be surprised how loud most guitarists actually play without realizing it. Your proximity to the cabinet is usually the culprit as well as your actual physical height. If I play with a guitar cabinet live, I always try to make sure I record a loop (at performance volume) on gigs and actually walk out in front of the cabinet and even into the audience section and hear what my tone actually sounds like. The influence of the room can really change your EQ without you realizing it when you're standing 3-4 feet in front of your cabinet while playing.

Lastly, I would also utilize the ducker feature in a lot of time based effects. This is how many shredding players can still play a ton of notes without the delays getting in the way until they hold a note for the sustain.
 
@Kingfloyd You might want to try messing with the ducking controls in the delay and reverb blocks. It lets you keep things clear and lush by attenuating the effects when you’re picking and raising them back up as your note decays. Play with the threshold and release times to find the right amount of attenuation and recovery speed for the effects. I used to use it quite a bit with washy delay/reverb tones. It does a great job of letting your notes come through without losing the “wash.”
 
Everyone has made good points so far. I just wanna add that you can EQ your reverb and delay trails in the Axe Fx. Maybe consider using some high cut on them so they’re a little darker. You might be able to make it super wet without it washing everything out by competing for the same sonic territory as your dry signal and the rest of the mix.
 
I have a “always on” reverb that is intended to make my guitar feel less naked by itself. When everyone is playing, it gets “lost in the mix” and that’s ok. A setting that can compete with the band would be pretty over-the-top by yourself.
 
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