Creating Presets (Low Volume Vs High Volume)

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black_jack_

New Member
Hello Folks!!!

i have noticed that when i create a preset at low volume (and sometimes to create a nice preset take alot of time and work) but when you use that preset in a band situation... on a rehearsal or a gig... that preset that sounded particulary nice at low volume is not soundind the same at all...

i want to know if some of you already add this feeling... and how to solve this issue...

I'm sure many of you will advise me to use monitors or good headphones ... I use a pair of monitors mackie MR8 to tweak my presets..
 
THis has been discussed quite a bit in numerous threads many times- you might try searching for something like "low volume" or similar to find some threads. In a nut shell, you'll have to create a separate preset for higher volume situations vs. low volume home practice to get thing sounding right. We hear things very differently as volume level goes up (Flethcer-Munson), the room you're playing in becomes more and more of a factor as volume increases, etc. Same as it's always been using traditional amp rigs.. you have to adjust things depending on the situation. Not that it's always easy...
 
Allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curve:

Allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curve:

Build Patch without any EQ that sounds good at low volume: (AKA bedroom level)

When You Go Loud Apply the EQ as Follows:
1 = 150 HZ - 12.8db
2 = 3.95 kHz + 3.6db
3 = 8.0 kHz - 7.7db
4 = 9.3 kHz - 12.6db

The Other Way is to Build the Patches that sound good at low volume with EQ ON:

Build Patch with this EQ on:
1 = 150 hz + 12.8db
2 = 3.95 kHz - 3.6db
3 = 8.0 kHz + 7.7db
4 = 9.3 kHz + 12.6db

Then when you play Loud Just Turn The EQ OFF!!! and you're at least in the ballpark for a better allowance of FMC

This is not a perfect solution, but it does get you from bedroom level to a basic stage level quickly. fine tune to taste.

This was a tip given to me a long time ago.
Just pick a good EQ Block and away U go.
Please let me know if this helps. It really helped me in my Line6 Days.
My POD XT Pro would sound thin live, unless i used this method.
Cheers,
Phantom.
 
The other 1/2 of the equation is settings that work great alone and in a band situation aren't the same. Most guitar players will set up tones that walk all over the bass players frequencies, the drummers as well as the vocalist...Once we realize that we need to fit in our frequency allocation band-wise, making settings outside of the band become easier.
 
Many times ive had to raise the FX volume when playing louder... It depends on my overall mix with the band.
 
Fletcher definitely has something to do with it. But speaker response/behavior has a lot to do with it also - especially at higher volumes - so there are other elements besides Fletcher working against you with regards to something sounding how you want it to at all volumes. With things like the Axe, more and more people are using FRFR and more and more people are spending huge amounts of time tweaking at low volumes or on headphones - things which don't translate to loud very well. In theory, a Full Range Flat Response speaker system should sound no better or worse than another system claiming the same spec right? I mean if two different speaker models claim Flat Response and Full Range over the audio spectrum, then they should sound the same right? Test two FRFR systems up side by side at several SPLs and listen - guarantee you're going to like one of them better that the other - that would indicate the claim of FRFR is nebulous at best - especially at different SPLs.

Sound pressure levels that are low don't move air and don't move speakers - you get a whole lot more involved in the sonic equation (speaker reactance, speaker movement, air movement, frequency coloration) as the volume escalates whether it's a guitar speaker or a FRFR cab.

It's always amazing to me when I yank the Axe out of the rack, go home and listen at low volumes to the patches that work well in the high volume band situation - most of the time, those that sound awesome live with the band, sound just marginal at low volumes. It's just the nature of the beast.

phantomofalfred gave a good workaround that can get you closer.

warlockII hits it on the head also with sonic overlap.
 
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Excellent thread guys. I'm not playing in a band situation and building patches for recording. I cannot expect these to translate perfectly well at loud volumes in a band/live context... everything changes.
I have started to loop my patches (I don't have a midi controller yet so I'm reamping in Reaper through the AxeFX II) and I bought the kids a nice little drumset. Many times I'll rig up and play drums along with my loops (from a drummers perspective) and other times I call the kids down and let all hell break loose! Rest assured the II along with a Matrix amp can pretty much rise above any din :)
I am planning on renting out practice studio space over the summer as a Daddy's get away and doing the same type of stuff -- I have friends who are players but we are seperated by hours. I'll be gigging again eventually.
 
warlockII said:
The other 1/2 of the equation is settings that work great alone and in a band situation aren't the same. Most guitar players will set up tones that walk all over the bass players frequencies, the drummers as well as the vocalist...Once we realize that we need to fit in our frequency allocation band-wise, making settings outside of the band become easier.
Click to expand...
As a soundguy (when not playing on stage) this is some of hte best advice I've seen. My pet peeve with "lead" guitar players is setting the volume to 11 and the "I need more me" (aka talent) in the monitors type.

Do you recall some of the criticism of Pete Thorn's first Axe-II vid tones, you'll understand that (other than being an incredibly talented player) Pete knows what is needed for live preset use. His presets may have sounded a little harsh (stand-alone) to some, but I'd bet those presets fit PERFECTLY in the mix.

Presets that sound great at bedroom levels played solo, seldom translate to gig volume levels and vice versa. By all means tweak at home, but if you gig, you will need to adjust the preset to sit properly in the mix. This is best done at rehearsals where "seasoned" bands will play at gig levels, and have members that are aware of the mix issues and not give you a tough time while tweaking. After a while, you'll be able to nail it at home and not need to change at rehearsal.
But remember, louder does not equal better.
 
the thing is... like lots of people i found stock presets not great presets.. now that i have the oportunity to played some of them at high volumes i have to admit that this guys know wath they are doing... some of them very balanced and they shine at high volumes... thats my point
 
on a huge stage where we see our music heroes with tons of cabs behind them, there is enough room on the stage for each musician to have his own "world" where he can truly be the loudest thing when standing in front of his rig.

but the reality is most club/bar stages many of us play on just aren't that big to support each musician having his own aural world. thus, the concept of "stage volume" and "stage mix" come into play. not only does the FOH have to mix, but the stage too so everyone can hear himself. much of the audience will hear the band from the stage mix and not the FOH, so you can't be ignorant and just play loud and have volume wars because the audience will just think the band sounds bad.

i remember the first time i played drums on a large stage, and i actually could not hear the guitar or bass rigs from where i was. i could only hear them through my monitors and it kinda felt like i was playing alone because the amp volume was so low where i was, but it was blasting where the bassist was, etc.

in these small places, you have to be able to hear your fellow bandmates... probably even the singer (!)... you have to share the sonic space with everyone. honestly, whenever my band's goal was to have the lowest stage volume possible, while still playing comfortably and "feeling" it, we've sounded really good and the audience could get into the songs much easier.

but if your concept of "feeling it" means the air from your speakers are blowing your hair and clothes around, well then you have to play at the huge shows only because that crap doesn't work at normal gigs.
 
chrisallen8888 said:
on a huge stage where we see our music heroes with tons of cabs behind them, there is enough room on the stage for each musician to have his own "world" where he can truly be the loudest thing when standing in front of his rig.

but the reality is most club/bar stages many of us play on just aren't that big to support each musician having his own aural world. thus, the concept of "stage volume" and "stage mix" come into play. not only does the FOH have to mix, but the stage too so everyone can hear himself. much of the audience will hear the band from the stage mix and not the FOH, so you can't be ignorant and just play loud and have volume wars because the audience will just think the band sounds bad.

i remember the first time i played drums on a large stage, and i actually could not hear the guitar or bass rigs from where i was. i could only hear them through my monitors and it kinda felt like i was playing alone because the amp volume was so low where i was, but it was blasting where the bassist was, etc.

in these small places, you have to be able to hear your fellow bandmates... probably even the singer (!)... you have to share the sonic space with everyone. honestly, whenever my band's goal was to have the lowest stage volume possible, while still playing comfortably and "feeling" it, we've sounded really good and the audience could get into the songs much easier.

but if your concept of "feeling it" means the air from your speakers are blowing your hair and clothes around, well then you have to play at the huge shows only because that crap doesn't work at normal gigs.
Click to expand...


No doubt. For most clubs where I live now (Baltimore), room for a band is more of an afterthought. Gone are the days where clubs actually built stages for local/regional bands (unless the club also draws national acts) so stage volume and fitting in the on-stage mix is paramount - because you're actually part of the crowd half the time. Sometimes we walk in these places and ask ourselves why they just didn't hire a DJ instead. Being a rock and roll bar band gets harder every day.
 
phantomofalfred said:
Allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curve:

Build Patch without any EQ that sounds good at low volume: (AKA bedroom level)

When You Go Loud Apply the EQ as Follows:
1 = 150 HZ - 12.8db
2 = 3.95 kHz + 3.6db
3 = 8.0 kHz - 7.7db
4 = 9.3 kHz - 12.6db
Click to expand...

Would these be the bands in the PEQ? e.g. band 1 = 150hz, -12.8db. What about band 5?
 
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