Covid-19 Pandemic Discussion

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I'm not saying asymptomatic for C19. I'm just saying "did not die of C19 complications". There is a difference, and not a subtle one. To get what I'm saying, assume the patient is positive and symptomatic, but shows no sign of respiratory distress.

not tested unless they need to be admitted

Verifiably not true. See numbers tested vs numbers positive: https://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/. It is true that not all people who want to be tested are tested. But of those tested, only a minority are positive. Those who are negative are most definitely not admitted right now.
 
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Sorry, but I have to dissent. At least I think I have to; I might be responding to something you didn't mean to imply.

Let me try to break it down a bit, for my own clarity:
1. Neither Federal nor State governments have facilities, labor, or expertise for mass-producing tests, masks, PPE, etc.
2. Only businesses have, or can rapidly acquire, those things; and only businesses can ramp up production to meet the needs. It isn't just that it's the kind of thing they do; it's that they're already stocked with the kind of people who do it, and governments aren't.
3. Federal government can serve as a clearinghouse, a coordinator, and a stockpiler, but not a producer. I think it'd be hilarious to shackle Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi at the ankle and set them to work stitching masks, but entertaining as that notion is, it wouldn't produce many masks. (Anyway, I hear McConnell is too busy sitting on his throne of skulls, one of which Pelosi apparently stole and used for a face.)
4. States differ wildly. Do I trust the president, or anyone working for him, to become an expert on the best way to rezone for field hospitals in Illinois? About as far as a I can spit a rat.
5. More broadly, this problem is a problem requiring massive, coordinated-but-independent, distributed parallel processing. If the president were directing the emergency in New York, he'd be at a loss to do anything for anyplace else. Fortunately, New York has a governor, which reduces the processing load. The governor has mayors, which reduces his load; and so on. Team Trump has a mix of talents and deficiencies to be sure, and features no angels or Vulcans, only imperfect human beings with armpits that stink; but what of it? If you put the 100 smartest people on the face of the Earth, superstars whose personal faeces are non-odorific, into a room in Washington D.C. and asked them to direct every decision (from resource allocation to production techniques) of this effort, they couldn't do it. No way they could! They're too far away from the information; they have no local familiarity; there's no way to get them all the information they'd need to make good decisions in a timely way; and even if there was, the 100 smartest people on Earth couldn't process that information and calculate correct conclusions. (In fact, I wouldn't trust that lot to pick the correct price for a packet of peanuts sold at a convenience store in Iowa. For that job, give me a convenience-store owner whose family depends on whether he makes the correct decisions. Amazing what you can figure out when your livelihood comes from it.)

So I don't think we need 50 states each doing a different thing. I think we need 1,400 businesses each doing its different thing within localities that are each doing their different things enabled by mayors and councils in communication with 50 governors each doing his/her different thing, all coordinating and sharing information facilitated by the team in the White House, who is (one hopes) kind enough to organize help when needed, and rude enough to poke and provoke when things don't look right.

The trick is how to make the incentives naturally motivate all those entities to be following our common goal of churning out a lot of tests and PPE that aren't defective, and eliminate roadblocks arising at any level. The DPA cleared the last roadblock that could be cleared at the Federal level; namely, shareholder resistance to risky shifts-of-resources ordered by the executives whom they'd originally hired to do a completely different job! Now that that's settled, the roadblocks will be things like water and transportation: That's municipal-level administration. Want Drs. Fauci and Birx to try their hands at that? 'Cos I don't! (Bet they don't, either!)

It could very well be that we're speaking the same notions with different emphases, and sensitivities to different risks. I'd wager you weren't really proposing some kind of Soviet-style commisariat for production, at the Federal level. But I'm not really proposing one at the State level, either; there are vastly more entities and lines of communication than that! (As I'm sure you already know.)

But we (We The People, we the public) don't see the communication from governor to municipality, or mayor to local union, or council to factory manager. Our visibility is limited to what Trump says to the states, because he's Trump, and like it or not (I generally don't) his Twitter feed sucks all the oxygen out of the room, media-wise, producing outright neglect of every other story on the planet.

So we get a skewed picture. What we see looks like mere buck-passing until we realize it couldn't possibly look any other way, so long as we remain in-the-dark about what everyone else in the system is saying.

Still, what I hear him saying, over and over, is: "We'll get you what you need if we can; let us know what it is; don't complain if we haven't yet come forward with something you haven't asked for; keep us informed and we'll share what we know; buckle down and make some progress; and if you learn important lessons share them with everyone else." Sounds about right. I hope those governors are saying the same things to the mayors, the factory owners, etc.
I repeatedly said use the national defense act which allows the feds to force Corporations to build whatever is needed. Trump has invoked it but in a far too limited way. I also repeatedly referenced replicate what was done in WW2 production wise. The Federal government can control and properly organize mass production using that act. They should also be doing all purchasing for the States too. None of this is new. It is how we won WW2. This is a virus that is highly contagious and knows no borders. If you leave the States to their own devices we are screwed because one State not on board will spread this everywhere else. Which will happen. Trump needs to obviously put someone in charge who has experience with this sort of thing and just back off with Pence.
4649C755-5198-41CB-AA6A-9E7260513B5F.jpeg
 
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And I can get great "results" if I just get a few billion dollars to my name. Doesn't mean it's feasible. You have to always run the numbers to see how realistic your propositions are, and how long they will take to ramp up. Some drugs that are being tested are just baffling. Some monoclonal antibody stuff in particular. At $1500 per vial, and hard as fuck to make even in small quantities (requires transgenic animals!), it's just not going to fly unless it cures world hunger as well.

I'd like to know what they're doing in Germany in greater detail though. About the same infections per million as the US (so whatever "testing" and "tracing" they're doing is about as (in-)effective as our own), but half as many deaths per million. Could be that they have more effecive treatment. Could be simply that when someone dies of, say, a stab wound and has C19 they mark it down as a stab wound fatality and not C19 fatality. In the US currently any fatality that also had C19 is chalked up to C19, even if the patient did not die of complications of C19. This is as per Dr. Birx. Cancer patient with C19? Congratulations, you've beat cancer by dying of C19.
You are putting a price tag on lives. This wasn’t done in World War 2. They did what was necessary. If the Hostess factory in Kansas can pump out a million twinkies a day then the entire Country can easily produce whatever is necessary testing wise along with PPE. I don’t think enough respect is going on just how contagious this virus is and what the USA has accomplished in its past (see space program and WW2).
 
I mean, are you confident that that graph "speaks for itself" in the sense that what it seems to mean, at first glance, actually is what it means? And, that what it means to convey is even knowable-in-principle, given currently-available information?

You're presuming that he was trying to make a valid point.

Germany, Spain, and Italy were all about 2 weeks ahead of the US. They locked down their entire countries
once the seriousness of things caught up with them. If the United States had been smart, we would have done
the same thing at the same time. I mean, the data was right there plain as day as to what would happen if we didn't.

Instead, too many states kept playing chicken with Covid and the Federal government refused to overrule.
 
Germany, Spain, and Italy were all about 2 weeks ahead of the US. They locked down their entire countries
once the seriousness of things caught up with them. If the United States had been smart, we would have done
the same thing at the same time. I mean, the data was right there plain as day as to what would happen if we didn't.

Instead, too many states kept playing chicken with Covid and the Federal government refused to overrule.
It is scary the need to make excuses for obvious incompetence is greater for some people than trying to resolve this crisis. Coddling any part of government right now is the last thing that is needed. Put their feet to the fire!
 
Until we test aggressively we will never be ahead of this thing. plain and simple and terrible.
The military NEEDs to be in charge of coordination of testing. But they aren't.
TESTING is KEY and it is NOT happening. Until it does you can all agree\disagree\deny\blame, etc, etc.; all you want.
You (as in WE) have NO DATA to use to access the severity of this virus. That is a very sad and devastating thing for America.
 
Until we test aggressively we will never be ahead of this thing. plain and simple and terrible.
The military NEEDs to be in charge of coordination of testing. But they aren't.
TESTING is KEY and it is NOT happening. Until it does you can all agree\disagree\deny\blame, etc, etc.; all you want.
You (as in WE) have NO DATA to use to access the severity of this virus. That is a very sad and devastating thing for America.
100% truth here. We need to speak up until this is done or a great depression with far too many unnecessarily dying is our only reality.
 
@DaAxeMan:
The Federal government can control and properly organize mass production using that act.
Yes, that's one plausible outcome.

Another is that, having invoked the act, they make bad, poorly-informed decisions which have to be fought or circumvented at the local level in order to achieve the goals. Centralized decision-making can be either a benefit or a hindrance. We see examples of both in history. But what is it that distinguishes those examples? What is it that makes a centralized decision-maker more likely to help, and less likely to hinder?

We both agree that there is a role for the Federal government; but what method, what structure of authority, ought to then be employed to ensure that the result is proper organization rather than hindrance?

That's the question I'm pursuing, and I think it's more important than mere invocation or non-invocation of the act. You can't just blindly trust that a central-decision maker doesn't make mistakes, just because he's central. On the contrary, the mere fact of centralization puts the burden of decision-making exactly where the expertise is lacking, the feedbacks from good/bad decisions are barely-felt or non-existent, there's minimal skin-in-the-game, and the communications-delay is greatest. That's one of the reasons (though not the only one) that Soviet-model command economies regularly destroy wealth rather than creating it. Nobody benefits from that (save one's enemies).

The better option is to allow a certain degree of autonomy at the tactical level (while ensuring that everyone is still pursuing the same strategic goals). The role of the central authority, then, is to declare the strategic goal, and then watch how the autonomous tactical units are implementing it and what success they're having, question anything that seems counterproductive or mired-down, and provide support to get roadblocks out of the way. This approach is precisely why our military is more agile than others', and it serves as a force-multiplier. It's also a big part of modern business management, for the same reason.

I notice you continually invoke the example of World War Two. Well, of course I agree. But the reason I agree is that the strategic goal (get us tanks, planes, helmets) was set at the national level, and then various factory managers and business owners made decisions, on their own initiative, in support of that goal. Who do you think directed the GM assembly line? It wasn't the president's chief-of-staff. William Knudsen did it.

Now, please note two areas where the World War Two analogy breaks down: First, it was a literal, not a metaphorical, war: So levels of hierarchy normally occupied by civilian authorities naturally were occupied by military officers. Secondly, the entire crisis wasn't inside the United States; the fighting was on foreign soil.

For both reasons, state governors were (quite properly!) less involved. But had there been fighting in Delaware and a supply-chain running through Missouri, either the governors or some parallel military state-role (e.g. command officers in the Guard, Reserves, or SDFs) would have been required to manage things in-situ, and the decisions for Delaware would necessarily have differed from those in Missouri. (As they should!) That's a better parallel to our current situation. If we take William Knudsen, a businessman, as our example, someone like Elon Musk might be the modern equivalent. But what if we ask who, for a State Health Department, has authority parallel to Knudsen's authority over GM factories? Wouldn't the answer be...the state governor?

Back up a few years before World War Two, and we have an even better example: FDR's New Deal regulators centralized economic decision making, and the result was a succession of disasters. The Great Depression probably lasted two to four years longer than it needed to, as a result of the ensuing liquidity crisis and the inability of capital investors to plan. The "brain trust" was, even then, far too ignorant to make correct decisions for managing such a complex, interdependent entity. And yet the economy and supply-chains have become more complex by several orders of magnitude since 1945. How much more inadequate would a White House "brain trust" be, now?

It seems to me that by asking all decisions to be concentrated in the White House team, you're giving the current administration a lot of credit for knowing everything. You are, in effect, giving President Trump more credit than he does! ...which seems...unusual. ;)

They should also be doing all purchasing for the States too.
See, I don't get that at all. Can you name one advantage that we'd get by taking a decision that could have been made by an official who's more directly-aware of the need, and requiring that decision to be made instead by someone who is less directly-aware?

Moreover, let's presume for the sake of argument that the current administration did take over -- I'm trying to avoid using the word usurp -- some decision-making authority that normally is held by the governor of New York, or the mayor of Seattle. I ask you: What would happen next? How would that series of events be depicted (how would the narrative be spun, as they say) in news-reporting about it?

Would it help us produce PPE faster? Or would it be a distraction? Would the governor of New York or the mayor of Seattle express happiness about it? Or would they feel legally obligated (or pressured by their constituents) to push back, or even to engage in civil disobedience? You know what modern American politics is like, so game this out a bit. Would there be lawsuits?

Sure there would. I think it'd be a massive waste of time. By engaging state and local decision-makers, we are currently pursuing the most efficient path to our goal. The alternative would only take us through a spasm of political recrimination, force us to a halt, and then require us to back up, start over, and go the state-based route after all.

So, to sum up: I think the White House team (on this topic, at least) is being smart by not overestimating their own smartness. The current president is prone to boasting; here, he correctly boasts of his policy's humility. Every GOP administration since (I think?) Eisenhower has been accused of fascism. But in this case the administration disappoints its critics by not invoking what they would surely describe as an Enabling Act. By avoiding the distractions such a move would predictably generate, the administration probably achieves the same levels of PPE and test production, faster.

That's how it looks to me.

I've made a serious effort, in the above, to avoid the political. But it seems hard to avoid, given the topic. Perhaps after this we should return to the bare-bones stats and models of the advance of the pandemic?
 
@DaAxeMan:

Yes, that's one plausible outcome.

Another is that, having invoked the act, they make bad, poorly-informed decisions which have to be fought or circumvented at the local level in order to achieve the goals. Centralized decision-making can be either a benefit or a hindrance. We see examples of both in history. But what is it that distinguishes those examples? What is it that makes a centralized decision-maker more likely to help, and less likely to hinder?

We both agree that there is a role for the Federal government; but what method, what structure of authority, ought to then be employed to ensure that the result is proper organization rather than hindrance?

That's the question I'm pursuing, and I think it's more important than mere invocation or non-invocation of the act. You can't just blindly trust that a central-decision maker doesn't make mistakes, just because he's central. On the contrary, the mere fact of centralization puts the burden of decision-making exactly where the expertise is lacking, the feedbacks from good/bad decisions are barely-felt or non-existent, there's minimal skin-in-the-game, and the communications-delay is greatest. That's one of the reasons (though not the only one) that Soviet-model command economies regularly destroy wealth rather than creating it. Nobody benefits from that (save one's enemies).

The better option is to allow a certain degree of autonomy at the tactical level (while ensuring that everyone is still pursuing the same strategic goals). The role of the central authority, then, is to declare the strategic goal, and then watch how the autonomous tactical units are implementing it and what success they're having, question anything that seems counterproductive or mired-down, and provide support to get roadblocks out of the way. This approach is precisely why our military is more agile than others', and it serves as a force-multiplier. It's also a big part of modern business management, for the same reason.

I notice you continually invoke the example of World War Two. Well, of course I agree. But the reason I agree is that the strategic goal (get us tanks, planes, helmets) was set at the national level, and then various factory managers and business owners made decisions, on their own initiative, in support of that goal. Who do you think directed the GM assembly line? It wasn't the president's chief-of-staff. William Knudsen did it.

Now, please note two areas where the World War Two analogy breaks down: First, it was a literal, not a metaphorical, war: So levels of hierarchy normally occupied by civilian authorities naturally were occupied by military officers. Secondly, the entire crisis wasn't inside the United States; the fighting was on foreign soil.

For both reasons, state governors were (quite properly!) less involved. But had there been fighting in Delaware and a supply-chain running through Missouri, either the governors or some parallel military state-role (e.g. command officers in the Guard, Reserves, or SDFs) would have been required to manage things in-situ, and the decisions for Delaware would necessarily have differed from those in Missouri. (As they should!) That's a better parallel to our current situation. If we take William Knudsen, a businessman, as our example, someone like Elon Musk might be the modern equivalent. But what if we ask who, for a State Health Department, has authority parallel to Knudsen's authority over GM factories? Wouldn't the answer be...the state governor?

Back up a few years before World War Two, and we have an even better example: FDR's New Deal regulators centralized economic decision making, and the result was a succession of disasters. The Great Depression probably lasted two to four years longer than it needed to, as a result of the ensuing liquidity crisis and the inability of capital investors to plan. The "brain trust" was, even then, far too ignorant to make correct decisions for managing such a complex, interdependent entity. And yet the economy and supply-chains have become more complex by several orders of magnitude since 1945. How much more inadequate would a White House "brain trust" be, now?

It seems to me that by asking all decisions to be concentrated in the White House team, you're giving the current administration a lot of credit for knowing everything. You are, in effect, giving President Trump more credit than he does! ...which seems...unusual. ;)


See, I don't get that at all. Can you name one advantage that we'd get by taking a decision that could have been made by an official who's more directly-aware of the need, and requiring that decision to be made instead by someone who is less directly-aware?

Moreover, let's presume for the sake of argument that the current administration did take over -- I'm trying to avoid using the word usurp -- some decision-making authority that normally is held by the governor of New York, or the mayor of Seattle. I ask you: What would happen next? How would that series of events be depicted (how would the narrative be spun, as they say) in news-reporting about it?

Would it help us produce PPE faster? Or would it be a distraction? Would the governor of New York or the mayor of Seattle express happiness about it? Or would they feel legally obligated (or pressured by their constituents) to push back, or even to engage in civil disobedience? You know what modern American politics is like, so game this out a bit. Would there be lawsuits?

Sure there would. I think it'd be a massive waste of time. By engaging state and local decision-makers, we are currently pursuing the most efficient path to our goal. The alternative would only take us through a spasm of political recrimination, force us to a halt, and then require us to back up, start over, and go the state-based route after all.

So, to sum up: I think the White House team (on this topic, at least) is being smart by not overestimating their own smartness. The current president is prone to boasting; here, he correctly boasts of his policy's humility. Every GOP administration since (I think?) Eisenhower has been accused of fascism. But in this case the administration disappoints its critics by not invoking what they would surely describe as an Enabling Act. By avoiding the distractions such a move would predictably generate, the administration probably achieves the same levels of PPE and test production, faster.

That's how it looks to me.

I've made a serious effort, in the above, to avoid the political. But it seems hard to avoid, given the topic. Perhaps after this we should return to the bare-bones stats and models of the advance of the pandemic?
50 States in bidding wars for supplies against themselves, the federal government, FEMA and the rest of the world is insane. You ever hear of a company called Walmart and why they dominate?

I can post you dozens of articles on this matter. Also a point man on supply can direct vital supplies to where it is needed instead of a State like Montana where the virus is not surging stocking up while a State like Michigan who urgently needs supplies now falls short.

PS - Every competent doctor out there dealing with this says testing is well short and no where near where it needs to be to get out of this mess. Screw the political consequences and get Corporations making them and making them now by the millions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/massachusetts-governor-says-hes-being-outbid-federal-government-coronavirus-supplies-despite-1493332?amp=1
 
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Well, I disagree with the end of your post, from "So, to sum up" really big time.
But , that aside. The Armed Services are trained to manage crisis. Far better than a bunch of politicians.
You think locals should prevail? So how about the "local" idiots that are NOT even trying to mitigate the spread?

I also am only talking about the "manufacturing and distribution" of PPE's and other needed medical supplies. That's all.

Not in charge of state stay at home orders. That definitely should be local. except where you have local authorities who still, to this day, deny the severity of the pandemic. But not much can be done about that.
Hope that clears up MY position.
 
@Stratman68:
Until we test aggressively we will never be ahead of this thing. plain and simple and terrible.
...
TESTING is KEY and it is NOT happening. Until it does you can all agree\disagree\deny\blame, etc, etc.; all you want.
You (as in WE) have NO DATA to use to access the severity of this virus. That is a very sad and devastating thing for America.
I agree wholeheartedly, with those three statements.

There was a fourth, where I inserted ellipses, that I'm not so sure of:
The military NEEDs to be in charge of coordination of testing.
What about USPHS? EIS? And the state Public Health Departments? Wouldn't it be better to offer them military assistance if needed, and only shove it upon them if they seem to be making no headway?

It seems to me that it's USPHS's mission, but that they might lack manpower in certain locations...and that's where I could see boots on the ground. But don't forget Posse Comitatus!
 
@Stratman68:

I agree wholeheartedly, with those three statements.

There was a fourth, where I inserted ellipses, that I'm not so sure of:

What about USPHS? EIS? And the state Public Health Departments? Wouldn't it be better to offer them military assistance if needed, and only shove it upon them if they seem to be making no headway?

It seems to me that it's USPHS's mission, but that they might lack manpower in certain locations...and that's where I could see boots on the ground. But don't forget Posse Comitatus!
Enough of this “if needed” talk. The military is needed to take over this crisis with a qualified and competent general in command. The consequences of not handling this properly are just far too grave and we have already wasted too much time.

What people can’t forget is given how contagious this virus is just one State being incompetent easily keeps the virus spreading everywhere else. We need a commander overseeing all States to make sure they are properly supplied and handling the spread in the best possible manner.
 
What about USPHS? EIS? And the state Public Health Departments? Wouldn't it be better to offer them military assistance if needed, and only shove it upon them if they seem to be making no headway?

It seems to me that it's USPHS's mission, but that they might lack manpower in certain locations...and that's where I could see boots on the ground. But don't forget Posse Comitatus!

Govt. agencies train for disasters. They have earthquake training, flood training, storm training, riot training, etc.
Whenever the shit has hit the fan during my cognizant lifetime, those agencies have mostly failed. And often times, miserably.
This is so much bigger in every possible scale.

If I'm going to trust anyone to get done what needs to be done NOW! - it's the military.

Where's Gunnery Sgt. Hartman?
 
50 States in bidding wars for supplies against themselves, the federal government, FEMA and the rest of the world is insane.
90% of all incoming is allocated to the states, such that in any item where the Feds (that includes FEMA, so your list is a mite redundant) are bidding against any state, the Feds automatically bow out and let the states bid only against one another. The White House has repeatedly stated that if a state finds itself bidding against the Feds, all they have to do is call, and the Fed bid gets withdrawn. I know of 2 instances involving New York where that happened, and Cuomo expressed thanks. Do you know of it not happening?

Now, the states do bid against one another. But please note: There is no alternative to that.

For any given unit of PPE, if both New York and Maryland want it, they're in a bidding war. The only question is whether they're bidding state dollars openly, or whether each state is covertly exerting pull on a Federal distribution manager to get him to favor them over the other guys. Both are forms of bidding war; but one of them is clandestine. I prefer the bid system precisely because, being open, it's less prone to abuse.

As for Wal-Mart: I have heard of them; and of Costco, and of Target, and of Dollar Tree, and of Five Below, and of Amazon. What's the relevance?

I can post you dozens of articles on this matter.
Feel free. You offer one; of an example I'd already heard. I suppose the question is: Has the person in charge of that Federal bid, which was contrary to administration policy, been let go, yet?

Or, to follow up: Governor Baker said, "But I've got to tell you that on three big orders we lost to the feds." Okay, why? Why wasn't the policy followed? Is the whole Federal apparatus out of the control of the White House? How'd that happen?

If indeed the White House is unable to exert policy control of the Federal bureaucracy, how much more important is it that some actions be taken elsewhere?

Also a point man on supply can direct vital supplies to where it is needed instead of a State like Montana stocking up while a State like Michigan falls short.
A fair point! ...but, are you saying that Montana has money to burn while Michigan is poor? How did Montana outbid Michigan? Furthermore, the Federal 10% exists precisely to have reserves in place to send to Michigan if they find themselves running short. (It isn't a hoard kept permanently on ice.) Do you know of an example wherein Michigan (or whichever) ran short, and Michigan called the White House, and the White House said, "No, sorry, we're keeping these?"

Of course, for lack of production, everybody's short. But that's precisely because the Federal stockpile of PPE was allowed to draw down in 2009 during H1N1, from billions of units to hundreds of thousands, and was never rebuilt in all the ensuing years.

Every competenr [sic] doctor our [sic] there dealing with this says testing is well short and no where near where it needs to be to get out of this mess.
I absolutely agree with that: We are of one mind that testing ought to be ubiquitous as soon as possible.

Screw the political consequences and get Corporations making them and making them now by the millions.
Sorry, but that's not an adequate answer to the point I made on that topic. I agree that we want corporations making them, now, by the millions. (They already are, actually; but millions isn't adequate when we need trillions; you and I agree that the supply hasn't yet caught up with the need.)

But by impatiently plunging into "political consequences" instead of deftly sidestepping them, you only delay the day when corporations are making them now, by the millions. So while you and I agree on the goal, your approach seems to be "Screw the obstacle, try to get to the goal" ...which is a great way of tripping over the obstacle and failing to achieve the goal.
 
Govt. agencies train for disasters. They have earthquake training, flood training, storm training, riot training, etc.
Whenever the shit has hit the fan during my cognizant lifetime, those agencies have mostly failed. And often times, miserably.
This is so much bigger in every possible scale.

If I'm going to trust anyone to get done what needs to be done NOW! - it's the military.
Hey, you get no argument from me on any of that. CDC and FDA stumbled badly in the outset of the current crisis.

But, again, how exactly does the military help, and who knows best what help is needed, and where?

I'd rather see it offered and accepted than forced and resisted.

See, this is the dynamic I'm trying to point out. You can get the same job done by offering help and delivering it when it's requested. In fact, doing that allows you to take over the situation more effectively: It's called "regulatory capture."

Alternatively, you can jam it down someone's throat and the only thanks you get is that they resist your pushiness and take you to court.

Ain't Nobody.jpg
 
Not in charge of state stay at home orders. That definitely should be local. except where you have local authorities who still, to this day, deny the severity of the pandemic. But not much can be done about that.
Hope that clears up MY position.
Yep, it does, and in particular, I agree about local authorities who still deny severity.

It is severe: But as you say, "not much can be done about that." And frankly, I think they'll come around...usually a week or two later than optimal, but soon enough to be arguably not incompetent.

BTW, regarding my "So, to sum it up": Maybe I was being too low-key, but that whole paragraph is intended to be read as heavy on irony. Don't take it as a straight-read; take it as if I'd peppered it with a lot of these ;) and these :rolleyes:.

To me, the whole dynamic is darkly amusing: One of the most, uh, robust egos on the planet uncharacteristically takes the more-restrained (and far more legally defensible) approach, and in response, the same people who normally armchair-psychoanalyze his totalitarian streak (their words) are aghast that he's letting a crisis go to waste. That, in combination with bodice-rippers like this and this, makes me think there's a daddy complex and a lot of projection behind it all. (Sure, that's me indulging in armchair psychoanalysis, too. It's hard to resist when everybody's going nuts.)

Forget "rain on your wedding day," which is just bad luck; that's ^^^ ironic.

Anyway, thanks for the back and forth on this. I'm very willing to hear argument to the effect that a massive military boots-on-the-ground presence on Main Street, coupled to centralized top-down factory-management from the White House, might have gotten us past the one-billion-mask threshold by this week instead of, say, week-after-next. But I have less faith in the White House than you do, it seems. I'm just not convinced of it would have gone so smoothly; I think it would produce a lot of other potential problems that the Subsidiarist approach deftly avoids, at comparatively little cost.
 
90% of all incoming is allocated to the states, such that in any item where the Feds (that includes FEMA, so your list is a mite redundant) are bidding against any state, the Feds automatically bow out and let the states bid only against one another. The White House has repeatedly stated that if a state finds itself bidding against the Feds, all they have to do is call, and the Fed bid gets withdrawn. I know of 2 instances involving New York where that happened, and Cuomo expressed thanks. Do you know of it not happening?

Now, the states do bid against one another. But please note: There is no alternative to that.

For any given unit of PPE, if both New York and Maryland want it, they're in a bidding war. The only question is whether they're bidding state dollars openly, or whether each state is covertly exerting pull on a Federal distribution manager to get him to favor them over the other guys. Both are forms of bidding war; but one of them is clandestine. I prefer the bid system precisely because, being open, it's less prone to abuse.

As for Wal-Mart: I have heard of them; and of Costco, and of Target, and of Dollar Tree, and of Five Below, and of Amazon. What's the relevance?


Feel free. You offer one; of an example I'd already heard. I suppose the question is: Has the person in charge of that Federal bid, which was contrary to administration policy, been let go, yet?

Or, to follow up: Governor Baker said, "But I've got to tell you that on three big orders we lost to the feds." Okay, why? Why wasn't the policy followed? Is the whole Federal apparatus out of the control of the White House? How'd that happen?

If indeed the White House is unable to exert policy control of the Federal bureaucracy, how much more important is it that some actions be taken elsewhere?


A fair point! ...but, are you saying that Montana has money to burn while Michigan is poor? How did Montana outbid Michigan? Furthermore, the Federal 10% exists precisely to have reserves in place to send to Michigan if they find themselves running short. (It isn't a hoard kept permanently on ice.) Do you know of an example wherein Michigan (or whichever) ran short, and Michigan called the White House, and the White House said, "No, sorry, we're keeping these?"

Of course, for lack of production, everybody's short. But that's precisely because the Federal stockpile of PPE was allowed to draw down in 2009 during H1N1, from billions of units to hundreds of thousands, and was never rebuilt in all the ensuing years.


I absolutely agree with that: We are of one mind that testing ought to be ubiquitous as soon as possible.


Sorry, but that's not an adequate answer to the point I made on that topic. I agree that we want corporations making them, now, by the millions. (They already are, actually; but millions isn't adequate when we need trillions; you and I agree that the supply hasn't yet caught up with the need.)

But by impatiently plunging into "political consequences" instead of deftly sidestepping them, you only delay the day when corporations are making them now, by the millions. So while you and I agree on the goal, your approach seems to be "Screw the obstacle, try to get to the goal" ...which is a great way of tripping over the obstacle and failing to achieve the goal.
You paint a fairly rosy picture of the PPE bidding situation with the States but it is a shit show out there.

PS - My Walmart mention was they use their size to buy in bulk with ease and then sell it at low prices to their customers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...he-federal-government-are-bidding-on-ppe.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...need-washington-during-this-health-emergency/

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/apr/01/are-states-bidding-war-over-medical-gear-feds/

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