Controlling a parameter in FM3 from external controller?

[Mats Nermark]

I have bought an AKAI LPD8 and the Roland USB-to-MIDI converter and have everything set up.
I know how to set it up so a pad on the LPD8 can control on/off for blocks.
What I don't know how to do is how to control a specific parameter in a block from an external MIDI CC.
Well, that not quite true as I know that I can set up a parameter, for example the input gain of the Amp Block so it can be controlled by External 1. I thought that should work but then when I load the preset, the value of the Input Drive is always 0. What I would like to do is to have the parameter use the saved value and only change when I move the controller knob on the LPD8.
Is there a way to do that?
I want the external control knobs on the LPD8 to work the way the Per-Preset Performance Controls to work.

Hoping for help from the experts I so frequently see here!

Cheers,

Mats N

 

[mr_fender]

Set your External Controllers in the MIDI/Remote menu to the CC# that your controller's knobs are using. You can then assign those External Controllers as modifier sources.

Edit: Nevermind. Misread the post.

 

[GlennO]

I have bought an AKAI LPD8 and the Roland USB-to-MIDI converter and have everything set up.
I know how to set it up so a pad on the LPD8 can control on/off for blocks.
What I don't know how to do is how to control a specific parameter in a block from an external MIDI CC.
Well, that not quite true as I know that I can set up a parameter, for example the input gain of the Amp Block so it can be controlled by External 1. I thought that should work but then when I load the preset, the value of the Input Drive is always 0. What I would like to do is to have the parameter use the saved value and only change when I move the controller knob on the LPD8.
Is there a way to do that?
I want the external control knobs on the LPD8 to work the way the Per-Preset Performance Controls to work.

Hoping for help from the experts I so frequently see here!

Cheers,

Mats N

Yes, that's a problem with the strange way the Axe-FX handles modifiers. The modifier shouldn't monopolize the parameter like that. However, if you only want to go in one direction from the base value, you can set that as the start value in the modifier.

 

[mr_fender]

Yeah, set the MIN value in the modifier to your desired starting point and it will initialize there instead of all the way down at zero.

With MIDI controlled values, the External Controllers default to the Initial Value set in the MIDI/Remote menu until they get updated when the controller changes. It would be great if you could set it to use the parameter value saved in the preset instead.

 

[Mats Nermark]

Yeah, set the MIN value in the modifier to your desired starting point and it will initialize there instead of all the way down at zero.

With MIDI controlled values, the External Controllers default to the Initial Value set in the MIDI/Remote menu until they get updated when the controller changes. It would be great if you could set it to use the parameter value saved in the preset instead.

Yes, I found the Initial Value settings but the problem is with parameters like input gain is that then all amps in all presets gets the same value which is useless as we all know clean amp sounds use way less gain than overdriven amp sounds.
I was hoping for a "Ignore External Control at PC" setting in the General page of the MIDI/Remote part of the Setup section.
But if knowledgable guys like you says it can't be done, I'm not hopeful.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

[laxu]

Yes, I found the Initial Value settings but the problem is with parameters like input gain is that then all amps in all presets gets the same value which is useless as we all know clean amp sounds use way less gain than overdriven amp sounds.
I was hoping for a "Ignore External Control at PC" setting in the General page of the MIDI/Remote part of the Setup section.
But if knowledgable guys like you says it can't be done, I'm not hopeful.

Yeah the external MIDI control system on any digital modeler is pretty terrible so Fractal is not unique in this sense.

Basically what happens is that the value your controller has for a given mapping is not tracked at the controller end so when you change presets, your controller does not know this happened as there is no way to send MIDI out to the controller to say "hey, CC 3 is now value 68".

Another option, again which Fractal does not support, would be relative values where the MIDI controller sends only "value up" and "value down" commands. This would work with preset changes.

The only way to use this effectively would be Sysex but this requires a middleman software to work out the translation of Fractal Sysex back and forth. With no real Sysex documentation for the current gen units, it's a bunch of reverse engineering.

 

[mr_fender]

Yes, I found the Initial Value settings but the problem is with parameters like input gain is that then all amps in all presets gets the same value which is useless as we all know clean amp sounds use way less gain than overdriven amp sounds.
I was hoping for a "Ignore External Control at PC" setting in the General page of the MIDI/Remote part of the Setup section.
But if knowledgable guys like you says it can't be done, I'm not hopeful.

Cheers,

Mats N

The controller starts at the same spot, but the actual parameter value will depend on the MIN and MAX settings you choose for each modifier, so it can be different per preset.

 

[GlennO]

The controller starts at the same spot, but the actual parameter value will depend on the MIN and MAX settings you choose for each modifier, so it can be different per preset.

True, but the problem Mats is describing is due to the fact the external control is stateful. If you move the control in one preset, that value will be applied when you load a new preset that uses that control, even though it may have different modifier settings. He wants that controller history to have no influence over the parameter when loading a preset. And, yes, that's how midi remote control usually works. That's even how it works with Axe-Edit, which is basically just a remote control for the Axe-FX.

I suspect it was done that way in the Axe-FX to handle the issue laxu refers to where physical position of the control (or the value indicator on an infinite control) becomes out of sync with the parameter value in that case. That's a traditional problem with remote controllers, but the conventional way to handle it is with two-way communication or catch-up behavior on the controller.

 

[mr_fender]

Yeah that's largely a limitation of MIDI CC's. Those messages are sent only on update (pedal movement).

The pedal inputs work the same way when changing preset though. If you have an expression pedal set half way when you change presets, the new preset will load with the controlled parameter reflecting that half way position. The modifier always overrides the saved value.

 

[GlennO]

I would say it the other way around. Far from being a limitation, the stateless behavior of a simple midi controller is exactly what Mats wants. The fact that the Axe-FX adds statefullness is the source of his problem. As I mentioned, I suspect there was a reason for doing it the way it is, but that's an unconventional way to deal with the sync issue, and can sometimes lead to WTF moments when loading a preset.

 

[Mats Nermark]

I would say it the other way around. Far from being a limitation, the stateless behavior of a simple midi controller is exactly what Mats wants. The fact that the Axe-FX adds statefullness is the source of his problem. As I mentioned, I suspect there was a reason for doing it the way it is, but that's an unconventional way to deal with the sync issue, and can sometimes lead to WTF moments when loading a preset.

This is correct.
I would like the FM3 to ignore any external controllers until I move the controller and actually send data to the FM3.
It would be so much easier if I could somehow bypass the whole controller window and assign a MIDI CC number directly to the parameter or if there was a "ignore external controllers at Program Change".
For us who use the FM3 extensively as a desk top unit, this would be very nice.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

[Moke]

I haven't read through this all, so forgive me if I missed something. But has anyone discussed using 'PC Reset' to get each preset to load at a specific value until the External controller is moved?

 

[GlennO]

I haven't read through this all, so forgive me if I missed something. But has anyone discussed using 'PC Reset' to get each preset to load at a specific value until the External controller is moved?

No.

Unfortunately, the ability to edit the parameter is again lost as soon as you move the controller. I'm sure that's due to the same reasoning I described above, so it's not illogical, just unconventional.

 

[laxu]

I would say it the other way around. Far from being a limitation, the stateless behavior of a simple midi controller is exactly what Mats wants. The fact that the Axe-FX adds statefullness is the source of his problem. As I mentioned, I suspect there was a reason for doing it the way it is, but that's an unconventional way to deal with the sync issue, and can sometimes lead to WTF moments when loading a preset.

MIDI controllers are not stateless either as they usually track internally what they are sending. So even with an infinite rotary encoder they might have an absolute value between 0-127.

Let's say you have your encoder at 64, this sets your mapped gain control to 5.0 on the FM3. Then you swap presets and try to turn your encoder again and it would then most likely jump to say 65 from what it was previous at. This is more obvious behavior on controllers that have either non-infinite knobs or have some display to mark the current value.

Relative values for <64 for "value down" and >64 for "value up" are the only way to keep this stateless and retain the FM3 value as "source of truth". But the Fractal does not support receiving these specifically.

If the MIDI controller has a MIDI input (not all do), then if the FM3 could send "hey, modifier mapped to CC 3 value should now be 45" when presets or scenes are changed and that would could keep the sync on both.

As an example of how this works on a Strymon pedal: If I load a preset, it sends the preset settings as MIDI CCs over the output (if configured to do so) and the MIDI controller can basically then update itself to "I received this value so my internal encoder value is now also set at this value" and turning a mapped control on the MIDI controller starts moving from the preset value. This is intuitive and expected for behavior. If I move the pedal's own knobs, then again MIDI CCs get sent that make the value simply jump to where the non-infinite knob points. Again, expected behavior. Without MIDI out in play, you run into similar issues as Fractal since the controller doesn't interact with what it's controlling.

With the Fractal external controllers being limited to 16 sending MIDI CC over MIDI Out should be something that could be easily implemented and would make the system far more useful for remote control. Just add an option for this somewhere and then MIDI CC mapped to external controller = receive MIDI CC, output mapped value as MIDI CC over MIDI out.

 

[GlennO]

With the Fractal external controllers being limited to 16 sending MIDI CC over MIDI Out should be something that could be easily implemented and would make the system far more useful for remote control. Just add an option for this somewhere and then MIDI CC mapped to external controller = receive MIDI CC, output mapped value as MIDI CC over MIDI out.

As I mentioned above, yes, that‘s a conventional solution for the sync problem, and it works for motorized and infinite controllers.

For the problem described in the OP however, as Moke mentioned, PC Reset is probably the best solution.

 

[Mats Nermark]

I haven't read through this all, so forgive me if I missed something. But has anyone discussed using 'PC Reset' to get each preset to load at a specific value until the External controller is moved?

Thanks Moke!
As I'm not a native English speaker, I thought PC Reset meant something else and (sin above all sins) didn't check the manual.
Now I've read the manual and think this may be just what I need. I will check in reality tomorrow.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

[Moke]

Thanks Moke!
As I'm not a native English speaker, I thought PC Reset meant something else and (sin above all sins) didn't check the manual.
Now I've read the manual and think this may be just what I need. I will check in reality tomorrow.

Cheers,

Mats N

I hope that works for you. I use the "PC Reset' setting a lot. I just like the idea of specific 'controlled' parameters loading at a specific value regardless of the controller's position, when that makes sense.

In some case (like a volume control), I would rather the preset load using the controller's current position.

 

[Mats Nermark]

I hope that works for you. I use the "PC Reset' setting a lot. I just like the idea of specific 'controlled' parameters loading at a specific value regardless of the controller's position, when that makes sense.

In some case (like a volume control), I would rather the preset load using the controller's current position.

I have not had time yet to try PC Reset but from what I read here, that doesn't automatically does NOT use the parameter value saved in the preset, but I have to set a specific value here. That would mean I have to copy every setting from about 15 parameters in every preset and set it in the PC Reset. That will be a lot of work and I'm not sure it's worth it.
But I will certainly try and report back.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

[666was999]

Another trick:
I have my midi out looped to the midi in. That way the scene midi block can send CCs into the unit and change external modifiers there.
Though I use it for things that don't need to be that fast like reverb settings. I don't know if there will be a hiccup when you use it for gain on an initialising preset.

 

[Mats Nermark]

I'm extremely frustrated.
I have now connected the LPD8 to my Mac and a Roland UM-One MkII also to the same Mac.
The UM-One MIDI connectors are connected to the correct MIDI contacts on the FM3.
MidiView confirms that the LPD8 is connected to the Mac and displays the correct values for what I do on the LPD8.
But my frustration is that I can't get the MIDI from the LPD8 through the UM-One to the FM3.
I have opened Audio/MID on my Mac but don't know how to connect it all. I have enclosed a screen shot.
I know I've read something about this here and I have searched for it but it seems to have vanished.
I'd appreciate any help I can get.

Cheers,

Mats N