Compression at the end of the signal chain

Jens

Jens

Power User
Hi,

I was in a recording session in July with the Axe and that was all fine and easy etc.
When the engineer was mixing he used compression on my sound which is not so strange
given the sound that I use and that he'd do that for a real amp too (you can check the
YouTubes if you want to hear it..).

He was asking if I could not add it myself within the axe, and that is of course possible, so
I've been messing with that a bit.

I was just wondering how many people do that for their live patches? thoughts? pros/cons?

Jens
 
have to be very careful with the levels when doing it this way, but there are certain sounds you're not going to get without late in chain compression.
IMHO if you want more of a "studio" sound in a live gig, its a great way to get it.
Back in my tube amp days I learned that compressing pre vs post amp changes how the amp gets hit and thus changes the tone, not just the levels.
Nashville squishy clean its before the amp, for studio polish and higher gain, I actually prefer the post amp compression.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jon
compression = less dynamic range. In a studio environment it helps a) keeping levels "right" beetween the single tracks and b) getting more loudness in the overall mix. The price you pay is less dynamic. Modern rock pop production are extremly compress. Some people discuss this as a "loudness war" and the musical dynamic is the looser. But back to the topic: You play JAZZ (by the way: I like it very much what i heard on youtube!) and in my opinion for this music dynamic is wanted! So i wouldn`t compress the guitar not at the end of the chain, neither on the beginning. The difference has FPFL pointed out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ang
Morphosis said:
and in my opinion for this music dynamic is wanted! So i wouldn`t compress the guitar not at the end of the chain, neither on the beginning. The difference has FPFL pointed out.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. Depends on the mix and the player. Gotta do what sounds best, ya know?
 
The great thing is that the Axe-FX is flexible enough that if you wanted to run a "traditional" guitar rig or you wanted to put your producer/engineer hat on you can setup your patches in that mode.

I think one of the example that we given to me once was that in a "traditional" rig you may have a delay pedal in front of the amp or possibly in the loop or a rack delay in the loop. Or you could think of your patch as in a recording session where the guitar is recorded dry and the delay effects are added afterwards. The Axe-FX allows the flexibility to do all that.
 
Morphosis said:
compression = less dynamic range. In a studio environment it helps a) keeping levels "right" beetween the single tracks and b) getting more loudness in the overall mix. The price you pay is less dynamic. Modern rock pop production are extremly compress. Some people discuss this as a "loudness war" and the musical dynamic is the looser. But back to the topic: You play JAZZ (by the way: I like it very much what i heard on youtube!) and in my opinion for this music dynamic is wanted! So i wouldn`t compress the guitar not at the end of the chain, neither on the beginning. The difference has FPFL pointed out.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

I was not planning to add that much compression. I have tried using compressors like the traditional before the amp and you are right that does not fit. I think I only know of one jazz guitarist that does that.

What I started to notice is that the compression added on recordings on the whole track had a nice effect. It does of course lower the dynamic range which is not so functional in jazz that is true, but if you
don't compress too much it wil also bring out dynamic detail (which is how I think I can hear it is being used). This made me curious about trying to emulate that effect in the live rig since it is possible.

In my experiments so far It has messed too much with the feel so I did not like it but I am still learning how the compressor works. :)

Jens
 
If you have an Ultra, Have you tried using the Multi-Band Comp at the end of the chain?
I'm not a jazz player so I'm not sure what frequencies you'd want to tame but it's a great tool to shape your tone. Being able to compress low/mid/high separately gives you the ability to retain the main body of your tone and just compress the edges but without cutting them out completely. Read Radley's comp tips in the Wiki, very detailed but simple to understand.
 
I generally end my patches with compressor or multiband compressor. This tends to be very lightly applied however; if I want a really squishy sustainy compressor, it goes in front of the amp.
 
@Axisman5150 I am not so much trying to tame frequencies as I am trying to bring out some of the dynamics so a MBC is not the first thing that comes to mind, but maybe it's worth a try, it's probably a good idea... Thanks

@M@ These patches are for recording or live playing? I also ended up using 1.5:1 ratio and a long attack until now. I am still not sure if I like how it feels though, When I play I still feel the difference in the reaction of the dynamics, and I am not sure I like it.

Would you mind sharing what kind of settings you use for that?

Jens
 
Hi Jens,

I really haven't messed with the compressors too much in the Ultra yet mainly due to there's so MUCH other stuff to wrap my brain around that I just haven't gotten around to them yet. I may not be able to offer any direct axe settings advice but maybe can pass on some insight about compressors and jazz that I've found from my own playing. From listening to some of your clips (great playing by the way!) I think we both enjoy some of the same bag of jazz sounds. For me it's really important to cop some of that early 60's warm clean jazz tone. I just fell in love with that sound and for me that's one of the base line jazz tones. The problem I've found is that even with jazz you still have to play fairly loud to cut over drums, electric bass (most gigs), Sax(s), etc. I'm certainly not talking rock levels, but you need a certain "weight" in the guitar volume in order not to be drowned out, or sound like a bee in the corner trying to following that big sax solo tone. Yikes! For me, this always caused problems with setting tones and volume because I would dial in a nice warm chord tone but then my single-line playing would sound weak and thin. I could dial in a fatter solo tone but then my chords would be too boomy, loud, and uncontrolled. I didn't want to change the quality of the tone, just tame the overall instrument some.

Before I got my Ultra, I would run my 335 through a MXR dynacomp pedal then through a couple pedals depending on the gig and into a clean tube amp (set clean as possible). I dialed in just a little bit of compression, just under 1/4 up on the dial (whatever that is in Fractaleze) but then set the drive up just over unity gain so that it hits the front of the amp a little harder than just the guitar straight through without the pedal. This gives the input a bit of a boost and gives the amp a good strong signal to develop a little more warm and robust tone.

I had never really "gotten" using the compressor with my playing before but I discovered this by accident once when practicing around the house. I picked up my guitar all plugged in just as I had left it the day before and turned on the amp. I starting playing some noodles to get going and some odd chord solo stuff. After awhile I thought to myself "dang, I must be practicing lately because I'm sounding pretty smooth!". Then I looked down and noticed the compressor pedal was on!

Smacks head!
I guess I never heard it before because it wasn't a tone thing but a feel, controllability thing. Even though I knew that's what compressors were used for, I couldn't quite grok that control thing until I didn't know it was on. If that makes any sense. After that little discovery, I could now just turn up or down the amp as needed and the dynamic range of the guitar would stay about the same.

The volume(boomy) changes between comping and single lines had smoothed out alot. So if you went quickly from soloing to comping you didn't get that boomy burst of volume when playing chords. Made it easier to mixup chords and single line playing together in a solo (from a volume standpoint, not a execution standpoint Ha!). It helped even out the volume response across the strings so even if you hit a note within a chord a little too hard it would limit the volume on that note to be more even with the rest of the chord. Sometimes for me my guitar can be too responsive (or my technique too poor) and some chords can be hard to tame depending on fingering and register.
This also helped for single line playing. The tone sounded stronger and not as thin and it didn't lose all it's weight as much when switching from playing chords to single lines. Lines seem to stick out and cut through better. It also helped to even out volumes on a poorly picked note in a line or a too aggressively picked note. I guess I use the compressor more as a limiter. It does somewhat affect how your very lightly picked notes "speak", as you don't have as much dynamic range and it will bring these up a bit, but I try to find that place where I still feel like I can play light dynamically in my picking (without the comp bringing up the volume too much) but still can feel it compress/limit a little when you play hard. Even at the top end I like to keep some dynamics for loud accents so I don't like a hard limiter feel.

You might just start with the compressor in the pedal setting first in your chain. Unless you're going for a studio sound I don't think you need a complicated compressor. In fact the less it changes your tone the better. Just set output to maybe +3db. Then bring up the threshold (I think, I'm not by my ultra) until you can hear it limit a little on hard picking and still gives you some dynamics as you lighten up picking. Play with that a while not really thinking about it and adjust a little to find what works with your guitar and preset. Maybe even try dialing back your volume knob a couple ticks on your guitar. I've found with my Gibson this helps even out the string-to-string response so it's not so thick on the bottom and thin on top.

Anyway, as I read this over I'm thinking to myself "well of course dude, that's what a compressor does" so you may already be thinking way beyond these terms, but that's how I switched my thinking about using compressors for jazz and it's really helped me for live playing and even bedroom practicing. I still can't get my head around using compressors for live rock playing. With that I still like to have all the dynamics from the guitar and let the amp/pedals do the compressing as you kick in OD, etc.

Thanks for starting the thread! This reminds me I've got to sit down and dial in an Ultra version soon if I can. I'm still in the searching/learning period with the Ultra. Don't know if any of this looong discussion helps but might give you some additional information to add to your tweaking sessions. I'm glad some guys are using the axe-fx for jazz tones and hope others will offer their insights and presets to help build these subset of tones on the board. I haven't been totally pleased with my jazz tones yet with the Ultra but mainly because I've been so amazed at all the other sounds I never before had access too that I don't spend enough time on it!

Yours in tweaking,
Gibson 335
 
  • Like
Reactions: jon
For a mild leveling effect just set the comp's threshold for 1 - 2 db gain reduction on max peaks, 2:1 comp, medium attack and release. Keep in mind that if you change anything level wise that's feeding the comp you'lll need to readjust your threshold (pre or post the amp).

A subtle leveling can be very effective for clean jazz players as long as it's "subtle".
 
@Gibson335

Thanks for the post.

I have until now not found it very handy to use the pedal compression at the beginning of the chain because it affects the dynamics too much. I am sure it is mostly a taste thing
and I have no experience with the MXR compressor. I think the that compression after the amp is a whole different story because it does not change the sound of the amp, just
the volume of it, and it came from realizing that I heard compression on recorded (jazz) guitar tracks.

It sounds like some of the stuff you're fixing with compression is maybe also a matter of EQ of the amp/guitar, by the way.

If you want to check AxeFX jazz tones I guess all you have to do is to start a thread in the preset exchange part of the forum :)

Jens
 
I use compression at the end myself. I almost NEVER use it at the beginning. But 335's post has me thinking that maybe I should try it as well.

I don't think 335's situation called for EQ....I had the exact problem before, and that's why I got into compression in the first place.....to even out some of that dynamic range on clean and jazz tones. I normally play hard, and sometimes that doesn't work out well in a clean context.....the hard picking transient drives the amp HARD for a half of a sec or so, and it very quickly dies off, so it feels like you hit a speed bump almost - sudden impact and then it's gone. Compression after the chain helped me to change the dynamic range, while not altering the tone. Just like 335 said, the single note lines stood out more and sounded smoother, and the chords weren't as rough and unpolished.

Mind you, I use compression AND a limiter. The limiter keeps the dynamic range from going TOO high, and the compressor just evens out the ride a bit. My compression ratio never goes above 2:1 and I think my magic ratio is just under 1.5:1 or thereabouts.

Being also a bass player, I can tell you compression is a VITAL tool, and if you use it right you can go from sounding average to pro quickly.
 
This is an excerpt from: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/ultra...29904-using-compression-metal-bulb-style.html

Also see: MultiBand compressor tutorial - Fractal Audio Systems Wiki

Try parallel compression with a twist…. and you’re not ‘compressing’ either. It's probably not the easiest thing to learn but it works great.

After the amp block set two defaulted compressors up in series. The idea here is to get the first compressor to add gain via intentional pumping, which after being mixed with the uncompressed signal will fill in the space immediately after the initial transient of the uncompressed signal. The second compressor is only used as glue to tighten up the resultant combination of the two signals. This second compressor may not be necessary but you don’t know that yet so... The end result is the ‘larger than life’ thing while maintaining definition and works on just about everything, not just metal. Done correctly, the perceived loudness will be greater as well and that’s usually a good thing.

To start, bypass the second compressor and make the first one pump like mad just to help get the release time spot on to suit the tempo. This is important. To do this start with the attack time around noon, release fully clockwise and the ratio up high - somewhere around 15-1. Leave all the other parameters at default for now except for hard knee - use it for set up. Play away and adjust the threshold so you get most of the meter showing gain reduction while playing. Now adjust the release time to suit the tempo of the song. That’s all you’re sorting out at this point and the radical settings are just being used to isolate the effect of release time - timing is everything here. The rise in volume (more like a pop or rush) that your hearing which occurs as the compressor releases is eventually what is going to give you the 'body' that will be tucked under/after the uncompressed transient. Leaving the release alone now, dial in the attack so the front end of the initial transient is slightly chopped off. You should be getting a picture of what’s happening and the meter should be close to bouncing back and forth almost full scale as you play. Adjust the threshold so the gain reduction returns to zero (or almost) just before the next strike while still playing at the tempo of the tune. Now fine tune the attack and ratio to find even more movement still, without chopping off much more of the transient. If zero (or close to) cannot be achieved at the tempo your working and the release time is at its fastest, raise the threshold to it get there as quick as possible while still having a decent amount of gain reduction. Go back and forth across the parameters (except release) a few times to get it just right. When you’re done with this it should sound like you have some weirdo dynamics happening and it sounds bad. The more it breathes, pops and pumps the better at this point.

Now that you have something to work with, use the mix control to slip this horrible mess under the uncompressed signal and viola, the fun starts. Now you get to go back and tweak on that horrible part so it plays well with the uncompressed signal and it's doing what it's supposed to do. The amount of pumping you have generated will probably be too much so reduce the ratio first because it’s the biggie now, or mix in less pumpage - whatever works. The other parameters not mentioned so far will have some affect too so at this stage play with them - particularly the filter, detection type and knee. Doing so will probably change things enough to where you will need to go back and fiddle about, with maybe a slight tweak to release time as well, but be careful as that’s the major 'timer' of the whole darn thing - and steer clear of make-up gain. Be sure to tweak the attack time a bit while the pump is mixed back in as it's a heck of a variable in mix context. You will hear the affect of a longer attack time which adds more ‘front-end’ and a shorter attack time that produces more ‘back end’ while this doctored mess blends with the transient of the uncompressed signal. Go back and forth and all around till its right or you’re out of beer.

An alternative to using the mix control is to set up the pumping compressor in parallel to the dry signal and follow up with the second compressor immediately after they are mixed back together. Depending on the person it may be easier on the head but you will use more cpu this way. If you really want to hurt your head, immediately follow the pumper compressor with some PEQ to shape the tone or tame nasty artifacts. It’s not uncommon to boost at least one relatively narrow frequency range that works well with the material too.

The second compressor is only used to even out the added dynamics when you end up adding more pump than you could otherwise get away with. By now you should know how to do this part of it - just keep the attack slow to start, with the release setting no slower than the prior compressor.

Note that any gain variance upstream of the compressor(s) input could change everything. If so, you need to (at a minimum) compensate by readjusting the compressor threshold to suit. Moving the compression upstream of the amp generally doesn't work as well (for me) but there are no rules so....

Also try this after the cab and be aware that sag can have a large effect on what the first compressor acts upon. The combination of sag and damp can have as much to do with the threshold action of the compressor as the filter does. You may also find that what works for one part of the tune doesn’t for another. If so, rig up something to switch about. Playing guitar then stopping to tweak while setting up compression like this is tough because you really need a third hand. Using a looper or reamping to set it up is the best way to get it close. Another set up limitation is that you can only change one variable at a time where with a hardware compressor you can simultaneously adjust multiple parameters against one another which speeds up the process. Effort = results. :
 
  • Like
Reactions: jon
Jens and Jon,

Compressors are a fickle Mistress! I'm a mere novice with compressors so most of my post dealt with your broader question of "how do you guys use comps?". Then after reading a couple posts saying "compressors and jazz don't mix" I thought I'd stand up for the "hmm.. comps are pretty good for jazz guitar" camp so I guess I was thinking of a "live" playing situation mainly. I thought you were trying to recreate the sound you heard at your friends studio with his compressor in your live rig.

I kinda disagree with the people who say "It's Jazz! It's supposed to be dynamic!". Of course what is jazz today? Anything from Coltrane to Jazz/Hip Hop so maybe we're talking about completely different tones, but I think the standardish Joe Pass, Tal Farlow, Jim Hall, Martino, up through Metheny, jazz tone is a pretty even sound dynamically for the most part. They seem to get an "upfront" sound that doesn't over take the rest of the band. They can drop back for comping, but they're upfront for soloing. That's different than dynamics in the music being played. I agree that there must be dynamics in jazz music for it to have life. I was just giving some ideas to think about to get that sound playing live.

Just thinking about the idea of using the compressor to change the dynamics of the instrument rather than the dynamics of the amp rig further down signal chain for live playing. For me, I've found placing the compressor at the end the chain (say on a recorded track) gives a very nice studio sound to the guitar track and helps the guitar sit nice in the mix, but for live playing it seems a little too "polished" to work well with the band. Usually no one else in the band is using a compressor except maybe the bass. Horns aren't, drums/pianos usually aren't, plus in my little club/jam/restaurant type gigs the room and acoustic sound of the instruments playing together factor in the overall sound of the music. There's alot of dynamic range available amongst all the instruments and as the band would come up in dynamics it seemed like the guitar stayed in 2nd gear, couldn't really rise up with the other instruments. When I stumbled over putting it first in the chain and let the amp work freely dynamically I could get a lot more control over the sound. I could come down enough for quiet parts and as I played harder on louder parts the amp seemed to respond better and maybe bloom a bit more to keep up with the higher dynamic instruments. That's also why I thought it was important to boost the output of the compressor a little to push the input and open up the dynamics of the amp a bit. Not enough to distort or change the tone but enough to give a robust signal to the front of the amp.

You're right, I maybe could have taken care of some of this with eq but I could never get rid of the nice chords/thin leads or full leads/boomy chords problem. I didn't have access to all the GEQ's and PEQ's the Ultra has to fine tune the tone, just the tone controls on the amp. I liked the tone but I didn't like the response. When I stumbled onto the idea of compressing the instrument it helped alot. Gave me a more "upfront" sound that was easier to control and still left the amp dynamics alone to react with the music.

In relating this to the Ultra I thought maybe just putting the pedal comp first in the chain to see if that gives you what you're looking for. That won't change the tone either if it's set up lightly. Maybe give you that smoother studio sound live without the hemmed in compressed feeling while you're on stage.

I think I use it more the way Jon describes with his bass. As a way to even the response across the instrument and strings so that when you're playing lightly all the notes play lightly and when you're playing louder, all the notes are louder. You don't have to be quite as careful about the harder struck note within a chord or a too aggressively picked note in a line. Grace notes are more present so they "speak" a little better without as much effort. For me it helps give that smoothed "in the mix" studio sound but still retains the dynamic ability to rise and fall with the music when playing live. Again for Rock/Pop music I don't use a compressor because I think that style is more dynamic at the instrument point and the amp does the compressing because you're usually running the amp louder (hotter). However nobodies ever given me a Grammy for tone or anything else so maybe this is just what works for me.

After I posted and reread the thread I snapped to the title (compressor at the END of the signal) and thought you probably weren't even looking for the same effect so maybe it was wasted effort. But just thought it might be another way to think about using the compressor to get what you want. Alas, it didn't turn me into Pat Metheny, but it helps Gibson335 putter down the musical road a little smoother.

Gibson335
 
Maybe you guys were right that the compression was the way to go, I was maybe thinking AxeFx where you can EQ everything, and not an Amp where you only have the tone knobs and the tone on the guitar.
And maybe my ideal in jazztone is more mid based than most? That's hard to say...

There is maybe something to be said about using the compressor as a limiter, but that would also be a completely different thing.

Do you guys not have the issue that you really "feel" the loss of dynamic range? What I mean is that you try to play softer or harder and it does not
respond like it should? I know that a compressor is made to do that, but I was experimenting with low ratio's after the amp to keep the dynamic feel, and
because I'd heard the sound of it in the studio.

I do use compression at the begining of the chain, I use it for some kind of sounds but not my jazz tone. Actually the other way around compared to Gibson335
for pop/rock stuff I might use compression there for rhythm and clean leads. I very rarely play pop/rock stuff though.

Even if it did turn into a "allround compression" thread it's nice to hear opinions and experiences :)

Jens
 
Hi Jens,

Yes I do feel a slight drop in dynamics when using the compressor but not much, not to the point that it feels squishy.

As all of us axe users have been discovering (from the many threads), a preset that sounds great set up at a low volume can sound like crap when you take it to the bandstand and up the volume (Fletcher-Munson). I think compression works somewhat the same way in regard to the overall volume your playing at.

When playing quietly solo it doesn't seem quite as important, but as the volume rises when playing with a band it just seems to even out the response of the guitar and makes it easier to "let loose" and play because you don't have to be so careful about transient volume spikes due to picking technique. Also I think the type of guitars typically used in jazz also plays a role. For myself I usually use my semi-hollow 335 or a fully hollowbody Guild. When playing at a bandstand volume level these can tend to get a little boomy when playing loud and sometimes you have to fight feedback issues. Not squealing feedback but just boomy bottom end feedback. By reducing the dynamics slightly and evening out the response of the guitar it's a little easier to keep in control.

That's why compressors are such a fickle Mistress and it took me so long to get my brain around them. If you can hear it - it's too much (at least in the jazz context we're discussing and not looking to increase sustain like you might in a rock context). I think we've all been so conditioned to think "when I stomp on that switch I want to "hear" how the sound changes". So we set them up to hear the change then we don't like the way it squeezes the dynamics.

I think that's why I only discovered it by accident when I didn't know the compressor was on. I thought my technique was getting better and I was sounding fuller/smoother in my playing when it was really the compressor just cutting the tops off the transient spikes a little bit.

Anyway, just passing on some info and discoveries that I have experienced in playing jazz and using compressors.

Gibson335
 
  • Like
Reactions: jon
I can echo pretty much the same sentiments as 335. I also use a semi-hollowbody and that bottom end and feedback CAN be a bit of a bother. Like he said, it's not squealing feedback, but more of a kind of resonant feedback...depends on the room you're in of course, but some notes will really resonate the room and instrument a LOT. No noise gate will help you, your friend here is EQ, and a compressor, a multi-band one at that.

As far as dynamics I do notice a little drop there, but not enough to be an issue. Matter of fact, at louder volumes, it's better that way....the transients can be too much then. 335 made a very valid point in that we are conditioned into hearing how the sound changes when we use something, so we set up the comp till we hear the change and then don't like it. To really set up a comp well takes some trial and error, but when you're done, you shouldn't notice that much 'change' in sound, but you will find that the sound is more studio-like and smooth.

Also try to set the threshold a little higher, so you have more headroom. I don't like for the soft passages to be compressed much....I LOVE dynamics, so I want them there still. I just don't want to hit the hard notes after the soft passage and hear BOOOM and THWACK, so I have mine set up to just smooth out the initial transient, just like 335 said. If you didn't know that a comp was there, you'd never think it was there.

As for bass, you NEED a comp. ESPECIALLY if you like slappin n poppin...and which bassist DOESN'T? LOL cuz without compression, your normal playing might be just lighting the bottom lights on the mixer, and when you slap or pop, the top mixer lights light up or hit the red.....and you're clipping. Usually doesn't sound that good. A compressor really helps, and for slap/pop, you can set up some more aggressive ratios. I think I use somewhere about 2.5-3:1 or thereabouts, but only if I need it....otherwise I stick to just mild compression, and if I'm playing fingerstyle, I usually turn off the compression.

I don't see why we guitar players should have a problem with compression....compress is commonplace for drums and vocals and bass just about EVERY time, live AND studio, and we guitar players are used to compression ANYWAY without even knowing it - tubes being driven, adding distortion, overdrive, fuzz....all these things add MUCH more compression than a typical 1.5:1 compressor will ever give. In a rock context, I also like to use some compression, cuz I prefer mildly overdriven tones, so a touch of compression does the trick for me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom