cheating???

TheGoatLord said:
Your job is to entertain. Are you doing your job better by using technology and giving people a better show? Is NASA cheating by using computers instead of doing calculations by hand? Seems like he's just making himself worth more with the tools he has at hand to me.
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Rock music used to be better - back when there were less tools. Just my opinion.
 
In writing and making music, there is no such thing as cheating. Cheating at a performance is a different matter, but I don't think doing things like using a harmonizer to reproduce something you wouldn't be able to do live otherwise is cheating. Lip synching or relying on autotune entirely because you can't sound passably decent otherwise is cheating.
 
well, I think it's okay to use electronic stuff and tricks if the tune is good. But when you take a step back it boils down to one simple fact: music is a stupid thing that alot of people learn to like and along the way develop their own taste. There is no right or wrong, and you get what you want out of it, no matter how stupid or brilliant or whatever it is. If it has some sort of rhythm and some kind of harmony you'll probably find some moron to buy it somewhere, no matter how dumb the tune is, or ingenious. Listen to some jazz. Music is some kind of rhythm and some kind of harmony, after that, it's up to the listener. That's all I got to say about that.
 
I agree. Lipsync is the lamest form of this BUT f.ex. Britney is still extremely successful. People simply don't care. The minority that does care is not essential business-wise.

There are no rules.
 
My one caveat is that people now assume any good sounding band is using auto tune or pitch effects. I had a musician friend finally make it out to one of our shows. After the gig he was like "Wow you guys rock! You guys are using pitch correct and auto tune right?" We don't use a thing for vocals. No delays, reverbs, no pitch correct, harmonizers...nothing. Now the sound guy can of course add in whatever he wants. And the good ones will add a bit of delay/verb. I think that is allowed though :)

It just stinks, imo. It takes away from the people who are naturally good.
 
Zwiebelchen said:
There is no cheating in music. It's fine as long as people get entertained.
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If it sounds good, it is good.

mind you, when I go to a live show, I go to see musician's play live (duh). Of course the groups I want to see do just that. the lip sync thing is for the "entertainment" shows, where the music is secondary to the dancing and such (not my cup of tea but those who are into that sort of thing live off the choreography, the moves and all of that). Imagine hearing those dancing, without the lip syncing: all you would hear is alot of panting and trying to catch one's breath (in my opinion maybe better than the generic low calorie ear candy that they promote but there ya go), you can have dancing or singing, but not both.
 
Swedish Chef said:
That awkward moment when a covers duo with a autotune/harmonizer sound better than the real thing:

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Well, I saw the original last Friday. This is good, really good and Luke himself posted the link to that vid on FB, but I shall forever testify to the fact that, 35 years in, Toto still pretty much kill it. Joe Williams was on form phenomenally, he's obviously recovered 100% and gave it his all. Clean and sober Luke played the same grip-you-by-the-balls-and-pull-you-in kind of stuff we all know and love, Paich, despite his frail appearance did a tremendous job and thoroughly enjoyed himself. Would have liked to see more action from Steve Porcaro, but he seemed quite happy playing harmonies and the occasional lead, and watching the others play in the meantime. They even had the sense to make Simon Phillips' solo part of a trading jam, so the dancing never stopped. Lastly, suffice to say you don't find many cats like Nate East. He was in the pocket so deep, any deeper and his head'd have popped out in the pacific ocean. So with all due respect, I beg to differ ;-)

On topic: The keyboardist is most definitely a hypocrite, as has been said before, if the subject matter really was vocal harmonizers. Autotune is a different thing, of course. however, some people constantly use harmonizers to make their abysmal voice "sound better", particularly in the "musical entertainer" biz. It mostly surprises me that people actually pay money for that. Really makes me want to shoot myself at times

so long
Andreas
 
Clark Kent said:
There are no rules. I hate it when some musicians think they are above others and can state rules. Like f.ex. many people call triggering drums and autotune cheating when most of their favorite bands do it all the time. They have sadly become an industry standard. Whether it's Paramore or Green Day or especially heavier music.

However I do prefer real backup vocals but if the other guys are too shy or can't hold a note I'd rather hear something nice. :)
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Well I believe there most definitely are rules in music. It's all in whether someone decides to learn and apply them or ignore. There are rules for voicing chords, for playing chords, for what notes sound good with certain chords and why, how certain rhythms go together and the importance of everyone playing at the se tempo or time signature, or what a time signature is. There are rules for how to use compression, eq, reverb. Not hard and fast rules, but things to know and how it works to achieve certain results.

Originally music seemed to have been a social thing. Recording music was done to preserve performances. These "rules" have been changing over the last 50 years or so. Now recording is more for manufacturing performances. I happen to like music created by the hands in real time. It's not a rule beyond a personal one. And this is one I break from time to time. Just because you have a point of view doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. No black and white ever.
 
IMO, there are conventions and more specifically genres of music have conventions, but I would say there are no "rules".

For a lot of gigs, it's just a way to entertain and provide a diversion. In that context, who are we to say what is entertaining?

For example, people hang out in bars to watch bad karaoke.
 
I'm very open about music.

And I enjoy just getting out and hanging out so I've got no issue with even a good DJ that can get a club really going. If the audience is having a good time and there is a good vibe in the place, I dig it.

I really can't critique someone else just because I don't get it or I don't dig it. So what? Room for everyone on the planet to make a beautiful noise. Even Yoko sold records lol
 
Swedish Chef said:
Yet, in the public eye and according to their standards, the music is passionate and enchanting... Give me a break.
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Isn't that the point though? What I love about music is that it can communicate things that words cannot. I can pluck a string that vibrates the air in your ear and from that, you feel different emotions. Musicians are like super-heroes. The masters of sound.

That being said, I don't care for the video you posted.
 
Swedish Chef said:
I hope I'm not the only one on this forum who absolutely cringe listening to this. Yet, in the public eye and according to their standards, the music is passionate and enchanting... Give me a break.
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Blech. A standing ovation from a room full of people who have never heard of flamenco music. Those judges... Where do they get their credentials? I'll bet that guy gets all the chicks at Burning Man...
 
holy crap that was horrible. he basically played one note at the end over and over, happened to hit some other strings along the way haha.

enchanting
passionate

wtf.

it's like watching a boring singer on any of those competition shows, and when they get to the chorus or hold any note, the audience is told to cheer and yell... when nothing really happened.

meh.
 
(IMHO): If you got the parts to do it, then keep it real as much as you can. If you don't have the parts to do it, then improvise tastefully and professionally. And if you can't even do that... QUIT while you're ahead.
 
There's nothing wrong with using tools and toys as long as you are creative with them.
For guitarist the pentatonic scale is kinda like cheating, because it is so common and easy to use in most music. What makes it great is passion and being creative, not just being a clone of everything else out there.
 
Swedish Chef said:
I hope I'm not the only one on this forum who absolutely cringe listening to this. Yet, in the public eye and according to their standards, the music is passionate and enchanting... Give me a break.
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I can't believe they thought that was great?????? Do they know who Glenn Proudfoot or Tommy Emannual are? I really don't think they were qualified to be judges.
 
NeoSound said:
There's nothing wrong with using tools and toys as long as you are creative with them.
For guitarist the pentatonic scale is kinda like cheating, because it is so common and easy to use in most music. What makes it great is passion and being creative, not just being a clone of everything else out there.
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You will find folks who think if you can't read music you are not legit... or if you play a fretted instrument you are not legit... or electric vs. acoustic... and so on :)

It doesn't mean you have to like everything out there but who really cares if some nuts like to watch other nuts make horrible noises? :)
 
By his logic, a guitarist using a pitch shifter to do harmonies rather than having three guitarists there creating the harmonies together is cheating. It's all about giving the audience a good show with what's available to you. If you can get a great vocal sound with a harmonizer, it's cheaper than paying three extra people to stand on stage with you doing vocal harmonies. If you're a rich, touring musician with a label behind you, you can afford the real thing. If you're a regular Joe, you put on the best show you possibly can with what's available to you. And yes, your keyboardist is a hypocrite.
 
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