Can we make it a standard thing when sharing a preset....

[Rinkleton]

That the first block is always a tone-match block with the reference signal captured of the raw guitar? Since guitars and pickups can be so drastically different, I think it would go a long way in making presets even more portable. I also think we would end up learning a lot about the characteristics of different guitar setups too.

 

[iaresee]

I can't speak for others but I'd never do this. Too much work. When it's free you get what you pay for, right? Besides, which guitar? Most of the presets I use get played with three very different guitars. Some times four different guitars.

 

[BillyZeppa]

Have you tried this yet? It might be nessesary to 'sweep' the tuning on the strings so you get a smooth average profile of the pickup/guitar at all frequencies of the pickup. In any case it would be great to know how the profile of your own guitar differs for the preset creator's, so you can make the adjustments to your guitar signal using pre-amp EQ., or by adjusting the amp block appropriately based on the difference between guitar profiles. could be quite informative.

 

[Rinkleton]

I can't speak for others but I'd never do this. Too much work. When it's free you get what you pay for, right? Besides, which guitar? Most of the presets I use get played with three very different guitars. Some times four different guitars.

The fact that different guitars are used is exactly the point. As long as you don't mess up the reference data, any time you plug in a new guitar just redo the local capture and you're good to go. And obviously if you don't want to use it, you don't have to, just disable the block.

Have you tried this yet? It might be nessesary to 'sweep' the tuning on the strings so you get a smooth average profile of the pickup/guitar at all frequencies of the pickup. In any case it would be great to know how the profile of your own guitar differs for the preset creator's, so you can make the adjustments to your guitar signal using pre-amp EQ., or by adjusting the amp block appropriately based on the difference between guitar profiles. could be quite informative.

I've tried it with myself only. I might consider doing it myself just in case I get this great tone for some recording then don't have that guitar anymore. Then that preset might be almost useless tone-wise. I thought of the idea because anytime I try someone else's patches it sounds nothing like their recorded versions. In Cliff's tone match demo video he had a bunch of chords (or non-chords) that he played and had a name for it... like 'the tone match boogie' or something like that.

 

[iaresee]

The fact that different guitars are used is exactly the point. As long as you don't mess up the reference data, any time you plug in a new guitar just redo the local capture and you're good to go. And obviously if you don't want to use it, you don't have to, just disable the block.

You're missing my point: I don't adjust presets so every guitar I plug in sounds the same. I like that they all sound different through the same preset. That's why I own different guitars.

People overthink things. Capturing references poorly is, in my opinion, going to cause more harm and confusion than no references at all.

Besides, how hard is it to twist some knobs or slide some EQ in the AMP block if you don't like how it sounds when you audition it? The tons match is just an EQ curve. Nothing magic there.

 

[paranoid]

sounds like a really good idea for your own use maybe. may be great for people who want all there guitars to sound the same, but I do not see many doing this to there own presets just to share them with the axe change.

 

[Rinkleton]

You're missing my point: I don't adjust presets so every guitar I plug in sounds the same. I like that they all sound different through the same preset. That's why I own different guitars.

People overthink things. Capturing references poorly is, in my opinion, going to cause more harm and confusion than no references at all.

Besides, how hard is it to twist some knobs or slide some EQ in the AMP block if you don't like how it sounds when you audition it? The tons match is just an EQ curve. Nothing magic there.

Great so you would just not use it if you downloaded someone else's patch. But if you were the one creating the patch it wouldn't be for your gain. The person who downloads it might care about getting it exactly right.

I think there would be quite a few guitar manufacturers that would take offense the idea of one guitar just being a quick eq adjustment away from all other guitars. If you apply that same logic to the tone match block anywhere in the chain, you are saying there is no point in the tone match block at all since you could just do a simple eq adjustment to get what you want.

I'd have to imagine that most times when people are downloading other people's presets they are looking to replicate the other person's tone rather than create their own. ... not always, but probably a large percentage.

 

[iaresee]

Great so you would just not use it if you downloaded someone else's patch. But if you were the one creating the patch it wouldn't be for your gain. The person who downloads it might care about getting it exactly right.

Well, I'm responding to the title of the thread and your request that we "make it a standard thing".

We should not make it a standard thing, in my opinion and experience.

I think there would be quite a few guitar manufacturers that would take offense the idea of one guitar just being a quick eq adjustment away from all other guitars.

A tone match is an EQ curve. Full stop. Doesn't matter if you're matching a guitar, a duck or a fart. It has nothing to do with the source for the match.

If you apply that same logic to the tone match block anywhere in the chain, you are saying there is no point in the tone match block at all since you could just do a simple eq adjustment to get what you want.

It provides a quick method to get a difference EQ curve, yes. You could achieve the same results with an EQ, yes. Some people find them valuable, some do not, yes. What was the question again?

I'd have to imagine that most times when people are downloading other people's presets they are looking to replicate the other person's tone rather than create their own. ... not always, but probably a large percentage.

I don't presume to know why other people download presets or what their goal is. If, as a preset creator your goal is to ensure someone can use the tone you created with the utmost accuracy, maybe a tone match block of the guitar is a good idea?

I don't think it's anything that needs to become a standard, and that's what your original post was all about, right?

 

[Rinkleton]

A tone match is an EQ curve. Full stop. Doesn't matter if you're matching a guitar, a duck or a fart. It has nothing to do with the source for the match.

Yeah it's an EQ curve, but there are two parts you are overlooking. 1) What that curve should look like. I don't want to spend hours tinkering around trying to get it right. If there is a quick and easy way to get it 99% of the way there, I'd prefer that. 2) You can't achieve what a tone match block does with any of the built in EQ blocks, no matter how much time you spend. The tone match probably has thousands of bands. Hundreds at the very least.

In your example, the guitar, duck, or fart is your source, so you can't say source has nothing to do with it. Without source there is no such thing as tone match in the first place.

By standard I don't mean "absolutely in every single scenario," but any time tone is important to the purpose of the preset (probably most of the time) it should be something to strongly consider. There are presets to demonstrate routing in which case this wouldn't be applicable.

So case an point: The preset-a-day people. I downloaded one of them because I like the sound. Tried it out and it sounded nothing at all like the demo. 30% best case scenario. I will probably never download another one because it's just useless to me. Had they included a tone match block in the beginning I could probably get 90% or better there, and then I could do a few EQ tweaks to taste from there.

The reason the axe fx sounds so good is because every step of the signal path is modeled. Everything but the guitar itself. That in itself is a huge step of the chain. The tone match block would bridge that gap significantly.

And again, it's not something you would use, but I don't think that makes it a bad idea.

 

[Electric1Gypsy]

Personally I don't really care about tone matching at all, I think it is much more impressive to attain the sound manually, I think it kind of defeats the point of having all these cabs and amps at your fingertips. I can see if you want to capture a sound of a record that is all cool and all. But not even the actual artists generally sound the same live as they do on the album. I think the more you actually tweak the amps and cabs the better at making presets you become. Why own a box with so much versatility and option as the fractal audio gear if you just end of doing tone matching. Just my personal opinion. I suppose if you are using tone matching for some really cool effects perhaps, but to make it a standard sounds like a waste of memory on the preset.

 

[Bakerman]

This wouldn't work because the reference/local curves aren't stored in the block/preset. Only the final match curve is saved. It may appear to work on one Axe-FX while the reference is in memory, until you power cycle or capture a new reference.

It's possible to do what you're describing with a few more steps.

Do a match with your guitar as reference, pink noise from synth block as local. (White noise may work fine. The match with pink should appear flatter on average but this may have no effect on the end result.)

Store the preset including tone match & synth blocks.

(New user gets preset)

Send synth through tone match, capture result w/ looper. Disconnect/remove synth block. Move looper before tone match, capture playback as reference signal. Then capture guitar as local and match.

Exporting the tone match as an IR could make the process slightly easier, if not already using 2 cab blocks elsewhere. Instead of using looper, user 2 could send the synth through the cab/IR to get the reference curve. I haven't checked if a tone match from a saved preset can be exported to user cab. If not, user 1 would need to do this after the first match and share the user cab w/ preset.

 

[yves vanmeenen]

not sure how it fits in this discussion but it would be great to have a tone match libery somewhere available. Now these days they are well hidden in obscure patches...

 

[Rinkleton]

This wouldn't work because the reference/local curves aren't stored in the block/preset. Only the final match curve is saved. It may appear to work on one Axe-FX while the reference is in memory, until you power cycle or capture a new reference.

Ah I didn't test that. I thought that might be an issue. And since it would be so much extra work it would be impractical.

not sure how it fits in this discussion but it would be great to have a tone match libery somewhere available. Now these days they are well hidden in obscure patches...

I was thinking something like this, but to do everything on the fly would be very expensive for the CPU. Also the library would have to be huge because you need an entry for every reference/local combination. Even then the local might not match exactly what you have. So I was having another though on that...

What if there was a guitar-match block that the fractal people managed. They would add guitars to it that you can choose from like how you can choose an amp. Each entry would contain the reference signal of those guitars. Then there would be a global area for you to store your reference signal of all your guitars. Then in the global settings, you would assign which of your guitars was plugged into which input. Whenever you change this setting, or change the value of the guitar-match block, the adjustment EQ curve is generated, stored, and applied to the guitar-match block, so it would be the same CPU use as a regular tone match block.

So to electric1gypsy's point, I can appreciate that your not a fan of tone-match, but I disagree that tone-match defeats the point of all the amps and cabs. It's just another tool that can be used in addition to all the other cool stuff it can do. Obviously it has it's place or else they wouldn't have taken the time to add it in. Think about it as a guitar emulation tool... something which the axe fx doesn't do. If you like the ability of having a whole bunch of amps and cabs at your fingertips, how can you not like the idea of having a whole bunch of guitars you can switch out instantly?

 

[iaresee]

If you like the ability of having a whole bunch of amps and cabs at your fingertips, how can you not like the idea of having a whole bunch of guitars you can switch out instantly?

But, now you're saying any guitar can be adequately represented by just a match EQ curve and that someone should maintain some database of match curves for all guitars. Didn't you just tell me I was insulting guitar manufacturers by saying this a few posts back? Pretty sure you did...

I think, in general, if guitarists really liked this idea the Line6 Variax stuff would be more popular.

 

[54321pj]

Aside from the jovial bickering I don't think this is an entirely bad idea...
The Acoustic amplification / DI world has similar devices with similar functions. There are lots of cases with presets which are built/designed with a pick type, e.g single coil, humbucker, tapped humbucker, active pickups etc etc.. They dont/wont translate well when sharing the preset (just like many other things - speakers, cable length P.A sytem but let not go there for now ) Some people are not lucky enough to own 10 guitars, or guitars with all types of pick ups.
But.... there may be a bit of mileage for a new type of block - not quite a tone match block, but similar.
What if the block worked in two ways.. First it nullifies the the pickup type, as in, flattens whatever EQ curve that guitar has.... then second it "tone matches" the type of pickup you desire.
I have an acoustic DI made by DTar, called the Mama Bear, which does something very similar. and works very well, especially when used first in the signal chain.

Honestly. it may be way off the Fractal software radar for the short term, but I dont think its something we should write off long term... There is mileage in such a block I think.

 

[shasha]

I don't share a lot of patches because I don't use a lot of patches, but I wouldn't bother with this personally.

However this could be something that someone that sells presets (like TAF) did. It might be a really good selling point.

 

[warlockII]

It would be great if we were able to download someone's patch that we liked and have it sound like their recording without having to tweak the whole thing. I'm afraid that a library would be such a monumental and IMHO impossible task to complete. I want my backup guitar to sound like my main guitar, so I put identical pickups in them...sadly they don't sound the same. Even when you use the same exact model guitar from the same company there are other factors that go into that tone (I'm not going to open that particular can of worms in this discussion).

I really loved the recording of the 12 string emulation that Moke had in his Bon Jovi patch. I bought the patch, but sadly prefer the tone of my original patch. On the bright side, I'm able to see the creative things that he did in the patch and can use them to build/modify my patches in the future.

 

[Rinkleton]

But, now you're saying any guitar can be adequately represented by just a match EQ curve and that someone should maintain some database of match curves for all guitars. Didn't you just tell me I was insulting guitar manufacturers by saying this a few posts back? Pretty sure you did...

I think, in general, if guitarists really liked this idea the Line6 Variax stuff would be more popular.

What I said was emulating guitars was not "a simple eq adjustment." Tone match goes way beyond the simple part.

I think variax type stuff will start gaining popularity soon. There are other factors why it hasn't, like guitar quality/playability/feel. In this industry people are super hesitant to move away from the standard, analog, tried and true stuff. When a bunch of big name artists start playing them they will start to sell well... or if they create a stand-alone thing that can be hooked up to any guitar, I'd buy that as long as it was priced reasonably. So if you just take that to the next logical step, build it into the axe fx.

 

[Rinkleton]

What if the block worked in two ways.. First it nullifies the the pickup type, as in, flattens whatever EQ curve that guitar has.... then second it "tone matches" the type of pickup you desire.

Yeah that's similar to the idea I was having, and this idea has the same challenge as mine.... figuring out how to nullify each guitar. It's still a different calculation that needs done per guitar. I guess if the hardware was robust enough it could do it on the fly.

 

[54321pj]

It would (The block) have to have a selection of pickup types (to be EQ flattened) pre-installed. i.e. single coil neck, single coil bridge, humbucker neck, etc etc. Then the same would apply for choosing the desired pickup type i.e the type you have in your guitar which you wish to use.
Like I say above its not new, the acoustic world has some products which work in a very similar fashion... I have the DTar Mama Bear, and it works like a charm, I run this first in the chain then into a Fishman Aura.... Or direct to anywhere I like..

Here's a picture if you can zoom in, you can see that first you select the "input source" the number corresponds to pickup types (piezo, mic, transducer, electro magnetic) there are 16 types to choose from.
Then he same goes for the "Target Instrument" you choose from 16 different types. and Voila, it does work well actually.

I would imagine with the processing power of the Axe FX something like this would be easy to achieve and do it well - After all it's all about modeling I suppose and the Axe is the best out there for exactly that. Then different pickups could be added to the user selection as firmware's go on....and on.
I would imagine it would get close, but it's not going to be absolutely spot on... At the very worst it could add some slightly different achievable tones to a single guitar type, and would probably work well enough for those who dont have a single coil guitar for example to get very close with some other slight tweaking.

..