Can one Verve 12MA pull off the Brootalz?

[fandyboy]

do you want to monitor what your audience is hearing, or do you want to air-condition the back of your legs? If the latter, then stick with your cabs.

What if I want to hear the what's going FOH but I also have sweaty legs? Then I'm really screwed!

 

[Dutch]

do you want to monitor what your audience is hearing, or do you want to air-condition the back of your legs? If the latter, then stick with your cabs.

What if I want to hear the what's going FOH but I also have sweaty legs? Then I'm really screwed!

Nah. You just use 8 12ma's.

 

[Dutch]

Well, wait a second here Gr00vy... I had assumed the OP's original question was asked within the paradigm of FRFR - the sound of mic'ed cab 'brootuhl' as being heard from FOH. Now we are wandering back into the realm of 4x12 stage sound, sound which traditionally nobody but players hear.

When considering the FRFR approach, this decision must be made first: do you want to monitor what your audience is hearing, or do you want to air-condition the back of your legs? If the latter, then stick with your cabs.

If OP is asking about the 12ma, he's asking from a players point of view and I assumed that meant monitoring. The 12ma is a stage monitor, after all...

BTW, I was at a festival (Flevo festival, 10.000+ people, 50 foot wide stage, huge line array) last year where I know the main stage sound guy. They were doing soundchecks. A guitarist was playing iirc an AC30 aimed at the mixing position. It was way loud at the mixing desk. I asked the guy if the channel was on, he said: "Nope, that's just that amp." :shock: :shock:
Darn right a 4x12 gets heard in the audience.

 

[fandyboy]

I have an AC30, I don't remember ever really being able to crank it to any decent volume live and I've played some pretty big venues. I usually have a sound engineer moan if it goes past 1/4 level.

 

[hippietim]

BTW, I was at a festival (Flevo festival, 10.000+ people, 50 foot wide stage, huge line array) last year where I know the main stage sound guy. They were doing soundchecks. A guitarist was playing iirc an AC30 aimed at the mixing position. It was way loud at the mixing desk. I asked the guy if the channel was on, he said: "Nope, that's just that amp." :shock: :shock:
Darn right a 4x12 gets heard in the audience.

Then the audience is getting a shitty mix - hopefully the soundman had him turn down.

 

[hippietim]

I have no experience with the 15ma so I can't help Mr. Groovy with his problem.

What I do know is the 12ma gets loud as hell. I can't be in the room with it being anywhere near cranked. When I first started using the 12ma I had dialed in my basic 4 tones (clean, little crunch, buncha crunch, and lotsa crunch). I had dialed them in at pretty moderate volume. Once playing with the band, our bass player literally said "Holy shit, you've got more low end coming out of that thing than my bass rig". Our drummer hits hard. Really hard. I have no problem keeping up with him even playing drop tuned metal where he's seriously throwing down.

I can't say how the 12ma would do on an outdoor festival stage but I do know how a Marshall w/4x12 does - it sucks. I've done a number of outdoor shows and the sound of a 4x12 guitar rig gets swallowed up outside - you have to be standing in just the right spot to hear it. Of course you can turn it up but then the 30 people right in front of the stage get blasted with my sound and have a crappy mix. So I've always relied on stage monitors to hear myself and my bandmates in those situations.

 

[Scott Peterson]

What Tim is saying (from my perspective) is that for monitoring, which the Verve Xma series is designed for, it will do the brootalz as designed - as a self monitor. It won't do duty as a 412 would firing straight ahead. I think (!) that you can put it on a stand and face it forward; but that is NOT how it's designed to be used.

The thing you have to 'get over' with FRFR is the traditional backline approach. FRFR is not a backline. FRFR is all about monitoring in the mix, aimed at your skull. Not using your onstage cabs firing forward blasting the front rows beaming you straight ahead. You can get away with doing the backline thing with the QSC, but even then, it's not really the same.

Brootalz or not, FRFR is about hearing yourself in the mix on-stage.

If it is about filling the ROOM, it's about cabinets or FOH. I think it is a misconception that FRFR try to replace 1:1 on stage cabs. FRFR is about monitoring yourself in the mix... NOT the traditional guitarist kills every living thing 20ft in front of his speaker cab aimed at the back of his knees.

IMHO, YMMV.

 

[hippietim]

The one additional point I was trying to make is that a 4x12 is not even a very good stage monitor in most cases. My experience with them on a big stage is that they are a tunnel of sound. And on a small gig like the bars we play, you almost certainly aren't delivering a good mix if everything is coming from your amp - but your 4x12 is probably a good monitor in that situation (although I feel sorry for the folks nearby).

 

[Scott Peterson]

And I'll also toss this grenade up for fun...

...backline is an entirely lame solution to live sound. It's worked for decades because that's all we had to work with, so we made working with it an art. But as a science, it's lacking.

If you do FRFR as a guitarist; you remove that set of issues from the FOH situation out front. The end result is that you sound better to the folks actually there to hear you play.

Again IMHO, YMMV (and now ducking and running for cover before the backlash comes....) :lol:

 

[mitch236]

And I'll also toss this grenade up for fun...

...backline is an entirely lame solution to live sound. It's worked for decades because that's all we had to work with, so we made working with it an art. But as a science, it's lacking.

If you do FRFR as a guitarist; you remove that set of issues from the FOH situation out front. The end result is that you sound better to the folks actually there to hear you play.

Again IMHO, YMMV (and now ducking and running for cover before the backlash comes....) :lol:

You know, from a purely FOH perspective, the entire band should be direct to mix. Digital everything with monitors to hear yourself. The audience would be thrilled (as long as the soundman is good)!

Now that's a grenade!!!

 

[hunter]

BTW, I was at a festival (Flevo festival, 10.000+ people, 50 foot wide stage, huge line array) last year where I know the main stage sound guy. They were doing soundchecks. A guitarist was playing iirc an AC30 aimed at the mixing position. It was way loud at the mixing desk. I asked the guy if the channel was on, he said: "Nope, that's just that amp." :shock: :shock:
Darn right a 4x12 gets heard in the audience.

AC30s have a miraculous omnipresence. Must be the ClassA thing or the open back design ... I played in a band in the 90s where I couldn't get heard with my 5150 and Marshall 4x12 over my band mate's old AC30. His sound was everywhere and I was nowhere, although the 5150 was around half way up (which is LOUD).

 

[Tone Seeker]

I recently had a massive jam session with some friends. The drummer is a real hard hitter (and since the drums are acoustic, they set the volume benchmark for the band). I had no problem keeping up with Marshall and Fender amps. In fact, I had headroom to burn. Then again, I'm using two 12ma's. Maybe one ma would not be enough but my two could have taken the rest of the band out!!! We played mostly LZ style music.

mitch236. . . . did you decide to go with two 12ma's to make sure you had enough headroom, or were there other reasons?

Terry.

 

[mitch236]

I recently had a massive jam session with some friends. The drummer is a real hard hitter (and since the drums are acoustic, they set the volume benchmark for the band). I had no problem keeping up with Marshall and Fender amps. In fact, I had headroom to burn. Then again, I'm using two 12ma's. Maybe one ma would not be enough but my two could have taken the rest of the band out!!! We played mostly LZ style music.

mitch236. . . . did you decide to go with two 12ma's to make sure you had enough headroom, or were there other reasons?

Terry.

I love stereo effects. I can always play mono if I can only fit one monitor on stage (with some minor mods to the patches).

 

[Groovey Records]

Well, wait a second here Gr00vy... I had assumed the OP's original question was asked within the paradigm of FRFR - the sound of mic'ed cab 'brootuhl' as being heard from FOH. Now we are wandering back into the realm of 4x12 stage sound, sound which traditionally nobody but players hear.

When considering the FRFR approach, this decision must be made first: do you want to monitor what your audience is hearing, or do you want to air-condition the back of your legs? If the latter, then stick with your cabs.

Fair enough as a stage monitor, in that capacity fine but the OP never mentions FOH in his post !!

I am saying that alone the 12 or 15 ma is not going to break through the sound barrier and create a Broothuhl assault on the senses of a room small medium or large.

Maybe at a friendly jam in a low ceilinged basement but probably not

He only mentions one 12 MA not a pair or an array.

I know its a different thing, I sold my stack a long time ago.

My answer is only pertinent to the OP's query

The rest of youse keep your filthy mindz off my sweaty legs

To me to Brutalize = Assault Force

I agree with Scott and you about the roll these monitors are meant to play

 

[Dutch]

Please don't shoot me, I'm just the translater here.

I wish I was in a sitch where I had the experience with all of these. I still haven't found a band over here. I'm not in the loop (moved here from across the country), I have high standards, odd demands (want christian band), don't get out much (rather stay in with my supermodel wife and kids than go hang around smelly bars drinking me a bear belly and eating urine saturated peanuts). I used to play at church but we moved out of that church because they were not bible centered enough. :shock: Now I got nothing again.
Anyway, I don't have an urgent need of a loud monitor. In church even my 8" Behringer sufficed, barely having a drummer. That behringer definitely wouldn't stand up to a real drummer, though.

About 20 years ago I was looking around for another amp and I tried a beatup AC30. I passed on it because I thought it didn't get loud. Must have done something wrong.

I've always been aiming my 4x12 at my head. :shock: Don't worry I turned it down.
I even built my own stand to tilt it backwards. I never wanted the front row to get blasted and not to be heard in the back. So I aimed it at my head, what passed round my head bounces off the ceiling and at least reaches further than the front row. And we always miced the amps, even in small rooms.

I thought my point with the festival story was obvious. And that sound guy is very good.

 

[rsf1977]

well here's an issue I guess I can see at least for me and my band. We play big shows, basment shows and DIY VFW hall shows. So when there's a good PA the FOH can handle the heavy lifting, but sometimes I get shows where the PA is sub par and not to mention poorly run. I guess I want to to know if there is a current FRFR speaker(s) that can handle replacing a 4x12 as the main source of sound in a loud metal band situation for a medium sized room when its needed?

 

[mik]

well here's an issue I guess I can see at least for me and my band. We play big shows, basment shows and DIY VFW hall shows. So when there's a good PA the FOH can handle the heavy lifting, but sometimes I get shows where the PA is sub par and not to mention poorly run. I guess I want to to know if there is a current FRFR speaker(s) that can handle replacing a 4x12 as the main source of sound in a loud metal band situation for a medium sized room when its needed?

Well you not gonna know until you try it yourself ... My suggestion - (1) hpr122i ... if you really looking to kill small animals in the radius of 20ft then (2) of the same thing.

If you want bone crushing - try JBL PRX512M this thing is so loud it's unbelivable. The only problem with JBL one - it has quite a hump in their mid response which is good and bad... Good - it cuts in the band's mix like a mother' and very very loud .. bad - because of that hump if you send the same signal you send to JBL PRX to the PA it will sound kinda "dull" since PRX is so mid heavy, so you have to EQ FOH in a separate way.

QSC sounded more even and overall better balanced to me than JBL which was just like a wild animal lol ... Oh and yeah .. JBL has a gate on input (not adjustable).. Some people don't care but some don't like it cutting reverb trails off ... Probably wouldn't matter much for live use..

Otherwise there are many other options out there ... I just mentioned the readily available ones ...

Mik.

 

[hunter]

well here's an issue I guess I can see at least for me and my band. We play big shows, basment shows and DIY VFW hall shows. So when there's a good PA the FOH can handle the heavy lifting, but sometimes I get shows where the PA is sub par and not to mention poorly run. I guess I want to to know if there is a current FRFR speaker(s) that can handle replacing a 4x12 as the main source of sound in a loud metal band situation for a medium sized room when its needed?

Maybe for this you should have 3 FBTs and run W/D/W :mrgreen: