Can I not do parallel mono FX in the loop?

[h1pst3r88]

Trying do what I thought was simple: H9 Max as a mono external send/return using Out2/in2-L and using a Ventris Reverb as a mono external send/return using Out/In 2-R. I can get one or the the other working but not both. Attached in the very simple present I am using.

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong or, separately, where I can set the send and/or return levels of the FX loop?

FX loop is not as intuitive as I expected. Thanks in advance!

 

[unix-guy]

What do you mean by "working"?

Please describe what you're expecting to happen and what is happening?

Also, you attached a screenshot not a preset.

Are your effects expecting line level output?

You also might need Output Mode set to stereo...

 

[h1pst3r88]

I mean that when I take FX Send 1 (Output 2-L) --> H9 Max input : H9 Output --> FX Return (Input 2-L) I get the standard loop behavior that anyone would expect (the output of the H9). Great.

When I do the exact same thing but replace H9 Max with Ventris Reverb. Same, expected, behavior, great...

However, unless I am mistaken, the FM3 has two mono loops (but perhaps I am mistaken), they are:
Loop 1 Out: Output 2 L
Loop 1 In: Input 2 L
-and-
Loop 2 Out: Output 2 R
Loop 2 In: Input 2 R

So, when I take the H9 Max and hook it up on the "L" side as I would expect a loop to work, in this case (this works):
Loop 1 Out: Output 2 L
Loop 1 In: Input 2 L

However, when I take the Ventris Reverb and hook it up in the same way as the H9, but on the "R" jacks (so, in parallel), I can't get both external effects to work in parallel as either of them work when set up as the only external pedal in the loop.

I have tried every permutation of global setup input and output settings (eg. stereo, L->R Copy, L->R Sum)

 

[sprint]

Post a preset! - to eliminate the possibility that your outboard pedals are causing the issue, connect loop1 Output L/R to loop1 Input L/R directly with 2 patch cables (output 1 set to stereo in setup>audio). Play something with the loop on - if you're getting signal on L and R, then the issue is probably how you've got the pedals setup.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Following. I wasn’t aware you could use the L and R of out/in 2 separately.

 

[unix-guy]

You don't really have 2 independent mono loops although you should be able to do what you're trying to do. I believe you need both Output 2 Mode and Input 2 Mode as Stereo.

I can't get both external effects to work in parallel as either of them work when set up as the only external pedal in the loop.

Again, please elaborate... What results are you expecting and what results are you getting? Just saying "doesn't work" (to paraphrase) does not tell us anything.

From what you described, it sounds like both effects work in mono when using Left. Have you tried either or both on Right only? Does that work as expected?

 

[GitGuy513]

I’m curious about this because I’m about to start messing with my H9 (only) in stereo in a FX loop fashion. Could it be to run two separate FX you would need to have separate output and input blocks for each. Which unfortunately the FM3 can only do 2 of each. I’m thinking the FX units are not seeing the proper signal at their inputs once the second outboard unit is connected. This is going completely from the manual and Block manual. I have not actually tried this in reality yet. So if I’m wrong please forgive me.

Also, I see your Out 2 “Output Type” and “Output Level” are set to Line and +4dB. Not sure about that. Also, not sure if Sum L/R in correct.

Edit:
Just to add, I would have thought what the OP is attempting would be possible until I began to think about it more and realizing this is not like a dual mono passive loop, but very active. I started to think about impedance issues and such. When I decided on the FM3 I had planned to incorporate the H9 in stereo and was reasonably certain this is possible, but had always questioned the dual mono situation. I had just accepted that between the FM3 and H9 Max I couldn’t possibly need more FX and let it at that.

 

[DJD100]

You don't really have 2 independent mono loops although you should be able to do what you're trying to do. I believe you need both Output 2 Mode and Input 2 Mode as Stereo.



Again, please elaborate... What results are you expecting and what results are you getting? Just saying "doesn't work" (to paraphrase) does not tell us anything.

From what you described, it sounds like both effects work in mono when using Left. Have you tried either or both on Right only? Does that work as expected?

You can do it by setting Outputs to Stereo, and using the Out 2 block's mixer/pan controls, and likely another Mixer Block post the Inpput 2 Block if you need the control etc.

I've done it with my Axe 2, though haven't needed to with my FM3.

Be aware of possible phasing issues depending on the latencies and panning of the two mono devices.

 

[laxu]

If you set both Output 2 and Input 2 to stereo in I/O settings and then what you want to do should work.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

Yeah, that makes sense, and then pan one channel hard right and the other hard left based on whatever scene you’re using at the time.

 

[sprint]

You can do it by setting Outputs to Stereo, and using the Out 2 block's mixer/pan controls, and likely another Mixer Block post the Inpput 2 Block if you need the control etc

I do this exactly with a loop and mixer at beginning of chain selecting between 2 pedals, one in the left side or one in the right side with mixer balance control on a switch to choose between one or the other (or both but I don't need that).

 

[h1pst3r88]

Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions. First, let me get the boneheaded move out of the way: one of the FM3's outputs was not pugged all the way into the back of my patchbay! That's initially what was causing the my most basic frustration/confusion. After I posted yesterday, I chilled and when I returned this morning figured I'd check the connection and voila -- sound out of both loops.

However, even with the hardware connections sorted, this is hardly straight-forward. Thanks to DJD100 I discovered the mixers and tried many different signal flows to try and get a dual mono send/returns and then trying to get them back to stereo using mixers before the sends, after the sends, and after the "In 2" block; different levels of " kinda working" but never something that worked like two discrete mono FX loops.

Put simply, I can get the "left" loop to work in the left channel (the H9), and the "right" loop to work in the "right" channel (the Ventris) at the same time (so, like an octave synth in my left ear and a lush plate in my right ear). I can get them to work mixed and centered but I have to use the pan controls on the "Out2" block. Alternatively, I can go to Setup and change Stereo to either SumL-R or Copy L-R but there are some sonic compromises when I do that.

I have reverted to: loop out -> H9 -> Ventris -> loop in which works but is serial not parallel.

I will keep messing around but I surely would have thought that this config would've been sorted by someone else -- it's not an uncommon use case for integrating external pedals with modelers.

 

[h1pst3r88]

I do this exactly with a loop and mixer at beginning of chain selecting between 2 pedals, one in the left side or one in the right side with mixer balance control on a switch to choose between one or the other (or both but I don't need that).

Thanks! I saw this post after I just replied about my so-so progress. Can you explain more about how you config this? So, your first block in the chain is a loop and a mixer?

 

[sprint]

Thanks! I saw this post after I just replied about my so-so progress. Can you explain more about how you config this? So, your first block in the chain is a loop and a mixer?

I have two pedals that I like to use at beginning of chain: Digitech Freqout Feedbacker and Digitech Mosaic 12string Emulation. I never use these 2 together (one or the other) and I don't like having pedals directly before/after axefx. So to facilitate this I do the following in Axfx3 (supported by screen shots below):

• Loop4 Out and In are fed into a mixer block (nothing special about the out and in - they are stock - see screen shot 1/2).
• In Mixer Block Channel A (3rd screen shot below) I have a stereo through sound from the 2nd row + I have an expression pedal letting in a variable amount (0 to about 10%) of left side row 1 signal from Freqout Pedal which is connected in mono through the left side of the loop - this is enough to generate some nice feedback. Most of my patches are set to channel A on this mixer as most of my patches have the Freqout option and not the Mosaic option.
• In Mixer Block Channel B (4th screen shot below) I have all my signal coming from the right side of row 1 from Mosaic pedal connected in mono through the right side of the loop. A few of my patches have the mixer set to channel B on the mixer for 12 string sounds.
• In addition I have a switch on the mixer channel to flip it over to Mosaic (chB) if I want to have 1 scene within a patch emulating 12 string and the remaining scenes staying with the default Freqout effect.
• I don't use these 2 pedals together at the same time but if I wanted to mix them in parallel the mixer would allow that also just by sending / receiving a stereo signal to/from the loop

It's a bit of a hack I guess, to get 2 external fx options out of one stereo loop - I've done similar with loop3 that you see further up the chain but with several pedals left and different pedals right, most on a midi switcher for even more complex fun (some times loop3 provinding left only mono (ie external preamp, drive pedals), sometimes providing right only mono (ie TC Mimic to adjust right side for doubling effect), and sometimes providing left/right stereo (ie use Strymon Iridium for amp/cab sound).

Loop2 after amp/cab is
out to H9, Source Audio Nemesis.

The patch continues into an spdif'd Ax2 for Reverbs and Synth goodies.

Edit: The one thing one cannot do with this, is to sequentially send signal through the left side of a loop, and then after , through the right side of the same loop - because there is only one set of In/Out blocks per loop. I guess Fractal could provide separate Left and Right In/Out blocks for each loop but I can see this being very convoluted for users to get their heads around and may result in some nightmarishly tangled presets to debug.

 

[h1pst3r88]

Sprint, Just reading your amazingly generous reply at the moment -- thank you so much for taking the time to go into such detail!! I had just achieved a mitigated success before you posted based on your previous reply... this should get me home.

I'll report back. Man, that's cool of you to do!!

 

[GitGuy513]

Just want to say thanks to everyone including @h1pst3r88 for all the information regarding this setup. I had been kept busy since last May when I got the FM3 just figuring out everything within and had not gotten to incorporating an outboard device. I’m there now and this has been helpful!

 

[h1pst3r88]

I wanted to follow-up with my progress and yet another boneheaded admission.

First, the FM3 can easily handle dual mono loops; it's as simple as creating an out and in loop in the blocks and making sure your physical connections are correct. In my case, just to recap, I wanted my H9 for synth sounds in one loop and my Ventris reverb in the other loop for lush reverbs -- together I get a fat, lush, and unique tone that is only vaguely like a guitar (yes, all this just for that!).

I got it almost completely working yesterday when I was monitoring via headphones on the FM3. However, my usual signal chain goes out of the FM3 and into the line-in on my UAD OX (which I modded to take line in)... and here it comes: the line in on the OX is MONO! This, of course, created no end of frustration as I was trying to balance the H9 and the Ventris.

This morning, with more of a clear head, I pulled all the cables from my patchbay and just went step-by-step monitoring through the FM3 and thought, "cool, I got it." Then I patched in the OX, plugged my cans into it, and !@#$ I only had the H9. I swapped the output on my patchbay from FM3 Out 1 (L) to FM3 Out 1(R) and I got the the Ventris. LIGHTBULB!

Realizing the error of my ways, I then patched L/R of the FM3's output 1 to my Antelope D4SC and... the clouds parted, sun rays enveloped me, and I had the killer tones of an H9 synth drenched in Ventris reverb. Tweaking each pan knob on those two channels far right and far left gave me each effect in one ear, but centered, I got the combo I wanted.

I can now adjust volume, pan, and add realtime Antelope FX to that signal.

Lessons:
1. Never get too much new gear all at once (I got the FM3, a patchbay, and I modded my OX for line in)
2. When thinking "mono" don't forget "stereo"; when thinking "stereo" don't forget "mono".
3. When you think it's the gear, it more often the "you" (or the "me" in this case)!
4. -10db is the right level for gear like the H9 and Ventris
5. The mixer in the FM3 is a very cool block (even though I didn't need it for this).
6. The FM3 is absolutely awesome!
7. This community is the bomb!

Huge thanks to everyone who kindly contributed to my slow realization that I was a bonehead!!

-Chris

 

[GitGuy513]

I wanted to follow-up with my progress and yet another boneheaded admission.

First, the FM3 can easily handle dual mono loops; it's as simple as creating an out and in loop in the blocks and making sure your physical connections are correct. In my case, just to recap, I wanted my H9 for synth sounds in one loop and my Ventris reverb in the other loop for lush reverbs -- together I get a fat, lush, and unique tone that is only vaguely like a guitar (yes, all this just for that!).

I got it almost completely working yesterday when I was monitoring via headphones on the FM3. However, my usual signal chain goes out of the FM3 and into the line-in on my UAD OX (which I modded to take line in)... and here it comes: the line in on the OX is MONO! This, of course, created no end of frustration as I was trying to balance the H9 and the Ventris.

This morning, with more of a clear head, I pulled all the cables from my patchbay and just went step-by-step monitoring through the FM3 and thought, "cool, I got it." Then I patched in the OX, plugged my cans into it, and !@#$ I only had the H9. I swapped the output on my patchbay from FM3 Out 1 (L) to FM3 Out 1(R) and I got the the Ventris. LIGHTBULB!

Realizing the error of my ways, I then patched L/R of the FM3's output 1 to my Antelope D4SC and... the clouds parted, sun rays enveloped me, and I had the killer tones of an H9 synth drenched in Ventris reverb. Tweaking each pan knob on those two channels far right and far left gave me each effect in one ear, but centered, I got the combo I wanted.

I can now adjust volume, pan, and add realtime Antelope FX to that signal.

Lessons:
1. Never get too much new gear all at once (I got the FM3, a patchbay, and I modded my OX for line in)
2. When thinking "mono" don't forget "stereo"; when thinking "stereo" don't forget "mono".
3. When you think it's the gear, it more often the "you" (or the "me" in this case)!
4. -10db is the right level for gear like the H9 and Ventris
5. The mixer in the FM3 is a very cool block (even though I didn't need it for this).
6. The FM3 is absolutely awesome!
7. This community is the bomb!

Huge thanks to everyone who kindly contributed to my slow realization that I was a bonehead!!

-Chris

That’s great you got it working. I mostly want the H9 with FM3 for the synth sounds too. I’m sure it will be useful in other ways too. I figure between the FM3 synth block and the H9 I should be able to come up with some thick non guitar type sounds or anything in between.

I totally agree getting too many new gizmos at once can put a stressor on the situation. When I was younger I could deal for longer periods of time messing with technology. Now I get burned out pretty fast and need time to clear my head. Actually, I have always found sleeping on things when stuck is the best. I have actually woke up in the middle of the night with the answer to a problem. This often occurred when I worked in tech full time and was being paid to work on solutions to problems.

Thanks again!

 

[unix-guy]

Actually, I have always found sleeping on things when stuck is the best. I have actually woke up in the middle of the night with the answer to a problem. This often occurred when I worked in tech full time and was being paid to work on solutions to problems.

This is me... Except I often find the problems lead to poor sleep because my brain won't let go of it!

The shower is the other place I tend to have epiphanies

 

[h1pst3r88]

This is me... Except I often find the problems lead to poor sleep because my brain won't let go of it!

The shower is the other place I tend to have epiphanies

Ha, exactly... like a feedback loop at 3am with a half asleep brain.

The shower for sure. How 5-minutes of standing under hot water can solve all the world's (or my studio's) problems is a great mystery of life. Why doesn't Congress debate in the shower?