Call me crazy but...

Like i said call me crazy!

Trust me though. I can guarantee I'm overthinking, but i guess its just an interesting thing to think about. Is the guitar he's using a factor or not? If it is, then the amps would only be identical with his guitar and not everybody elses. It will still sound fantastic, but it would never be EXACTLY the real amp. It the guitar he's using isn't a factor, then will everything I'm daying is irrelevant.
 
tommycooke said:
Also don't get me wrong. This thing is a monster and Im extremely satisfied. Through my tele and my schecter. It's perfect. But my main question is about accuracy.
Click to expand...

You aren't crazy, but you do have to have realistic expectations for a multi-effects & amp/cab modeler. Take the AFX out of the picture for a second, do you know any amplifiers that have a conditional input setting for what type of guitar you're playing? I have never heard of one, but it may be out there.

I am not certain on Cliff & FAS' modeling techniques, but I would think they would be programming as guitar agnostic as possible. Regardless of the style pickup, the tone is "A" and other guitars can add additional variables making it sound "B" or "C". There are plenty of ways to shape your tone without changing how the simulation would/could be. You should assume the amp and cab are going to respond almost exactly how a real amp would respond.
 
tommycooke said:
Like i said call me crazy!

Trust me though. I can guarantee I'm overthinking, but i guess its just an interesting thing to think about. Is the guitar he's using a factor or not? If it is, then the amps would only be identical with his guitar and not everybody elses. It will still sound fantastic, but it would never be EXACTLY the real amp. It the guitar he's using isn't a factor, then will everything I'm daying is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with a particular guitar ! His guitar will sound like his guitar through the AxFx or the amp, and yours will sound like your guitar through the AxFx or the amp !
 
Hi Tommycooke
Welcome to the Fractal Forum. You have years of musical enjoyment ahead of you. Now to your question: Zenaxe had it exactly right - the capability you're wishing for is an integral part of the Axe already. Cliff has used digital signal processing to replicate the behavior of the analog circuits. And in fact Mr. Chase has done this better than anyone on the planet. Here's where I think you may be getting tripped up: if you think of the Axe in terms of a recording i.e. the sound that you hear is a combination of the guitar pickups plus the amp then you wonder how Cliff backs out the intrinsic tonality of the guitar to arrive at only the amp sound. This is not what Cliff does. Based on my reading of Cliffs comments over the years (and being an electrical engineer myself) Cliff assures model accuracy to the real amps by comparing the sound of the model to the real amp. He assures dynamic model accuracy by adjusting knobs on both model and real amp (in a similar manner) and compares that the model tracks the real. Once he reached the practical limits of this process he invented MIMIC which compensates for any minor differences for the ultimate match between model and real. The result of this process is that it doesn't matter which guitar you use, the model is designed to behave just the same as the amp.

The other thing that may be tripping you up is that you may be familiar with Kemper which is not a 'model based' approach but is more like Cliffs MIMIC technology in that it tries to take a 'snapshot' of the real amp sound and compensate for any signal path difference to sound like the original amp. Where this approach breaks down is when you try to adjust amp parameters - its virtually impossible to maintain an accurate representation of the real amp the way that Cliffs model based approach does. I hope this helps.

We all look forward to hearing how you enjoy your Axe.
 
GotMetalBoy said:
I haven't read all the other replies, so maybe someone already mentioned this but you can try changing the Input Impedance. It's explained on page 114, Section 5.35.1 in the Owners Manual v15.0.
Click to expand...

This is the answer to the OP's question. The input impedance of an amp will load the pickup, changing the pickups response. This parameter actually changes the analog input section of the amp. You want detail, you've got it. All you need to know is the input impedance of the first device being modeled. It follows that, for the OP's question to be valid, the amp would have to be the first block in the chain.
 
Well really that's pretty much everything I want to understand for my question. That its the circuits that are being modeled (however he does only that) and he doesnt look at the real amp the way a guitarist would look at it. He actually looks in and virtually takes apart each component and models what the amp is, not what it does when a guitar is playing through it. Am i correct in saying that?

Also I believe that impedence thing could still be a good thing to look into. One thing about my tele going into the Axe i feel like it needs a stronger "current". I'll look into what this does, Thanks!
 
Your Tele would need a stronger "current" going into the Axe because it's pickups are weaker than your humbuckers. You compensate for this by turning UP the Gain or Volume or both. No overanalyzing needed.
 
tommycooke said:
I've looked into what he does, but unless I AM misunderstanding, he does use a guitar and that guitar would have to make a difference, right? So if hes using a single coil when hes modelling, a humbucker wouldn't sound the same right? Its like taking a tone match that used a different guitar from yours and expecting it to sound the same. It wont. Unless you're using the exact set up.
Click to expand...

I am not certain this is how Cliff goes about things, although it is known that he plays, but...

This is kind of what you, as a player, would want, right? To be able to plug in various guitars and have the unit react to them differently based on the signal it's being fed? That is exactly what happens for me with my guitars, and it's exactly the way I want it. I DON'T want my tele to sound like a les paul, I want it to sound like a tele, which is why I bought it in the first place, etc.

That said, you can use the input trim on the first page of the amp block in AxeEdit to simulate a hotter/colder pickup... IIRC, it basically acts as an attenuator to your input signal. This holds true even if there are other blocks (like an OD/distortion) prior to the amp block in your signal chain. I'm making an assumption here, but unlike an analog setup - where it would be impossible for your amp to know you've turned down your guitar's volume pot with previous circuits present BY USE OF A CONTROL ON THE AMP - the Axe knows your input signal and can let the amp block know what it is (or what you want it to be via input trim) and still allow for the natural flow of a given signal chain... but again, that's just my guess.

Oh, and welcome to the cool kids' club.
 
I have no real idea how Cliff does what he does, but I would just offer up that anyone smart enough to not only write the software side of this unit but also insure he has the correct hardware. If he is smart enough to do all of that then I would guess he is smart enough to make sure whatever guitar he is using isn't going to color the amp he is modeling.

We already know that he has invented a way to make sure the power amps used with IR creation do not color the IRs right? So why would this be any different?
 
You can use the Tone Match to get a splash of different personality to your guitar. It won't change it to something totally else though. But using humbuckers to match a strat is a fun experiment anyway, it gives a bit of new sparkle to the sound.
 
The Amp input trim will allow you to increase/decrease the amount of signal the virtual amp will receive. It's like a guitar volume knob that goes beyond "10".
 
tommycooke said:
Well really that's pretty much everything I want to understand for my question. That its the circuits that are being modeled (however he does only that) and he doesnt look at the real amp the way a guitarist would look at it. He actually looks in and virtually takes apart each component and models what the amp is, not what it does when a guitar is playing through it. Am i correct in saying that?

Also I believe that impedence thing could still be a good thing to look into. One thing about my tele going into the Axe i feel like it needs a stronger "current". I'll look into what this does, Thanks!
Click to expand...
The Axe Fx II models the amplifiers at component behavior level
 
I'm hoping he uses some type of signal generator to get a consistent signal to validate the amp vs Axe output. But the factory supplied presets have to be set up for one or the other (singles vs humbuckers) as there is only a given preset for a specific 'tone'. I'm assuming it depends on the tone (song) that is being simulated.

But wtf do I know! -cp
 
The input impedance parameter, to my knowledge, is the only parameter in the Axe that is interactive with your guitar.
 
tommycooke said:
Hey guys. So I'm new to the Fractal Forum. This is my first post so.. Greetings Everybody!

Anyway, I was thinking about different ways an Axe FX reacts to different pickups, and it got me thinking. I would love to see a very interesting modification to the Axe in which in the input section, you can set which type of pickups you are using, giving you optimal tone for each amp. From my understanding, when the amp is modeled, Cliff references the real amp to here any nuances that are different. I mean that's kind of obvious, but that's not my point. My point is, to make sure that any guitar, whether its using an EMG or Seymour, humbucker or single coil, '57 Classics or P 90s, etc, any pickips of a vast variety of brands and styles can be plugged in and it will react exactly how those pickups should react to the real amp.

It's a dream, I know, but it would be an insane implication. Isnt it true that Cliff uses a certain guitar to listen to differences? Wouldn't that mean that some guitars would become inaccurate? Or does he do it in a way where the pickups aren't "listened" to and only the amp is heard? I guess what really makes me wonder is how he can hear what's he doing to create an amp to make any guitar work exactly as it should under any setting.
Click to expand...

Well, no ! It´s a process...
The Axe (or amp) reacts like it does depending on what is being put in. If you put in crap you will get crap out of it. That´s the way it should work.
A real amp reacts different with different guitars and pickups. Level and Eq-ing can be done, to compensate, within reasonable boundries, but it will never be the same thing anyway. And probably it shouldn´t either.
 
Welcome!

Take a look at the output levels for different pckup choices.
The output levels of the pickup choices below varies between 95 and 510.
Even within different catagories like humbuckers and single coils the outputs vary widely.

High Power | DiMarzio

Hum Canceling Strat | DiMarzio

Hum-Canceling | DiMarzio

What is great about the Axe FX is that it reacts like my real amps do when using different guitars. My Strats, Teles, Les Pauls, Dan Electros, Rickenbackers, Gretschs, etc all sound different from each other.

If I am building a preset for a Strat I will make different choices than if I am using a Les Paul, etc.

Just make sure you set your Axe FX levels so nothing clips.

Preset Gain Staging
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh_Gmu19r4M
 
Dial up a Plexi, it doesn't matter what you put through it - strat, prs, keyboard, iPhone - whatever you play into it will sound exactly like it would through a real Plexi... He's modelling how an amp reacts to a signal. Particular guitars or pickup types should suit it no better or worse than they do the amp it's modelling, in theory. I'm sure Cliff has tried guitars through it at some point too ;)
 
Last edited:
tommycooke said:
Well really that's pretty much everything I want to understand for my question. That its the circuits that are being modeled (however he does only that) and he doesnt look at the real amp the way a guitarist would look at it. He actually looks in and virtually takes apart each component and models what the amp is, not what it does when a guitar is playing through it. Am i correct in saying that?
Click to expand...

That’s exactly right. In recent comments (in the wishlist thread from memory) Cliff basically said that he’s not adding any new amps unless he gets an accurate schematic that goes with it. So that basically means that from the schematics, he builds a virtual model with each of the components that’s included in the diagram, and he then uses the physical reference amp to measure at certain points in the electrical chain to make sure that the virtual voltages and stuff matches what the real amp does. This makes sure that the Axe Fx model would behave the same when you plugin whatever your guitar as what the physical amp does, at least compared to his reference amp (all amps will always sound slightly different given variances in the electrical components).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom