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Bug / Partially Solved: Tap Tempo based on when you release, not when you press

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Hey @BryantP, this might be something weird going on with the default layouts too like the Per Preset thing. I added a tap tempo switch to a different layout with no hold function and that one seems to be updating on press and not release like expected. Could this be another weird hidden hold function thing?

Edit: I was also testing on switch 6 which has some different hold behavior due to the MLM combo move, so that could be it too.
 

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Yeah I think it was the MLM thing on switch 6. If I turn off the MLM switch combo it updates on press as well.

@giantslayer, is your tap tempo button assigned to switch 6 (bottom right corner)?
 

BryantP

Administrator
Moderator
Supposed to, but it’s not. Try the tests I outlined earlier in the thread. Using the same tap timing but varying how long I held before releasing produced drastically different tempos.
I just tested and it was working for me as I described. If you could please upload your "System + Global Blocks + FC" I can take a closer look when I have a chance.
Hey @BryantP, this might be something weird going on with the default layouts too like the Per Preset thing.
Very possible and a good thought.
 

giantslayer

Inspired
Yeah I think it was the MLM thing on switch 6. If I turn off the MLM switch combo it updates on press as well.

@giantslayer, is your tap tempo button assigned to switch 6 (bottom right corner)?
Yes, I am using bottom right for tap (it’s the most accessible for right foot tapping). I’m not at home so can’t check it until this evening, but I think you might be on to something.
 

Rex

Legend!
Supposed to, but it’s not. Try the tests I outlined earlier in the thread. Using the same tap timing but varying how long I held before releasing produced drastically different tempos.
I tried that test, and it’s working correctly for me.
 

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Make sure you test it with Last Two selected for Tap Tempo mode. Otherwise the averaging makes it less obvious. Also, set your Hold Timeout to 2 Seconds so it doesn't interfere with the test. Like giantslayer, I see two different behaviors when doing his taping tests. With a hold function assigned, or using switch 6 while the MLM switch combo is enabled, the tempo updates on release, not press. When no hold function is assigned, it updates on press.

If I rhythmically alternate press and release in 8th notes like down,up,down,up, and so on, and watch the front panel while on the tempo screen, I can see the value update on either press or release depending on whether or not a hold function is assigned to that switch.

Granted these are just exaggerated methods to illustrate the behavior and in actual usage, the effect is way more subtle.
 

BryantP

Administrator
Moderator
Make sure you test it with Last Two selected for Tap Tempo mode. Otherwise the averaging makes it less obvious. Also, set your Hold Timeout to 2 Seconds so it doesn't interfere with the test.
I tested it exactly like this. With a hold function assigned, it is expected that the tempo does not update until the switch is released (provided the hold function was not activated). The calculated tempo is always based on the down action of the switch, however. This is a limitation of supporting hold functions and the only way around this is inadvertently and undesirably setting the tempo in some use cases, which was true at some point in the past.
 
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mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Another test is to alternate the tapping pattern, once with down and up equal as 8th notes, and once with down as a 16th note and up as a dotted 8th. Like "Down - Up - Down Up - - Down - Up - Down Up - - " and so one. Doing it that way, the down is always on the beat, but the up alternates between short and long lengths between. When a hold function is assigned, you'll see the tempo alternate back and forth between a short and longer value. When no hold function is assigned, it will register on the down and the tempo stays consistent.

I guess a simpler way to put it is tap a consistent tempo on the down, but on every other tap, hold the switch down longer between while the other is just a quick bounce. You'll see the tempo value jump back and forth as you repeat the pattern over and over if a hold function is assigned.
 
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Rex

Legend!
Another test is to alternate the tapping pattern, once with down and up equal as 8th notes, and once with down as a 16th note and up as a dotted 8th. Like "Down - Up - Down Up - - Down - Up - Down Up - - " and so one. Doing it that way, the down is always on the beat, but the up alternates between short and long lengths between. When a hold function is assigned, you'll see the tempo alternate back and forth between a short and longer value. When no hold function is assigned, it will register on the down and the tempo stays consistent.
There's no such thing as "on the beat" when it comes to Tempo. There is no beat. It's just a time value.
 
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mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Yes in practice I know. This is just for the purpose of demonstration to highlight the discrepancy in the behavior. In practice you'd never really tap in a tempo like that. But it does illustrate how being inconsistent in your press and release speeds can seem to affect the tempo you get in some cases.
 

giantslayer

Inspired
Alright, finally got home and tested that MLM thing out. Here is what I've found:
MLM Enabled: Uses release times.
MLM Disabled, no hold function: Uses press times.
MLM Disabled, with hold function: Uses release times.

So MLM disabled with no hold function is basically the way to go. I think there is some opportunity for this to be explained better in the FC manual (not sure who needs to know about that).

Thanks for the help, everyone! Mystery is solved. I'm gonna update the original post and thread title for posterity.
 

JoKeR III

Power User
Unless you precisely time the switch release or press, the light will never coincide with or blink in perfect time with the beat of what you're playing but the tempo/repeats of the effects will be accurate.

It seems that the confusion or misunderstanding is- "if the blinking light is off beat, the effects are going to be off beat". Simply not the case because the effects respond to the input signal only. If this was the case, we'd all be screwed because we would need to watch the tempo light to know when to strike a note or start a song; it would all have to be based upon the blinking light. Again, not the case because the light doesn't dictate when the effect is triggered, it reacts to the tempo that is set.
 

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
That was cleared up. It's got nothing to do with the LED. The actual tempo value is affected by the release when a hold function is assigned.

The manual states that the press of the tap tempo switch is always used even if a hold function is assigned. That is not always the case. For some users, if a hold function is assigned to the switch, it uses the release of the switch, not the press.

This is illustrated by varying the amount of time you hold the switch down when tapping in the tempo. You will end up with different tempo values even if the press occurs at a consistent tempo.

If no hold function is assigned, it does use the press as expected.

It appears that not everyone is seeing this behavior, so there is something causing the inconsistency.
 
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